French Trapper Folding Knife, Please Help

[David Fischer]

Hey guys,

I'm trying to make a french trapper knife, also called a ring lock knife, ring pull knife, couteau à palme, etc., for reenacting purposes. I love the look of these knives, and I'll post a picture of the one I'm trying to emulate below:

 

In case you aren't familiar with how these work, there is a spring which runs the length of the back of the knife. It has a square or round hole towards the end which a matching prong on the knife's tang locks into when opened. To release the knife one simply pulls back on the ring to release the spring.

Here are a few major problems I'm running into:

1. What type of metal and what thickness should I be using for the spring on the back? I tried making a spring out of 22 gauge weld steel, but it seems like no matter how I heat/cool the spring it isn't very...springy. It just sorts of bends when you pull the ring back. How do I make it more snappy?

2. The cross-shaped ring which holds the spring to the antler. I made one that looks pretty close and I'm happy with it, but I am having trouble fitting it snuggly to the antler, especially over the spring. I heat it up, slip it on the antler, and then I try closing it tightly with tongs/pliars here and there. I've got it really close I just don't know how to get some of the edges completely flush short of heating it up on the actual antler itself.

Any advice on these issues would be greatly appreciated. I'll try to post some pictures of my efforts when I can.

[Geoff Keyes]

I'm pretty sure one of these books has a bunch of stuff about exposed spring folders, I just don't remember which one, you should buy them all! Gene is one of my very first teachers, I have no other interest. just trying to help out.

 

Geoff

[C Craft]

The spring is going to have to be just that when finished, "spring steel"! Having said that I am not sure what direction to push towards. Perhaps something like the spring material you would find in a lawn mower rewind! The steel may have to be annealed to make the roll to lock in the ring but, the material will have to retain the spring quality! There for once the ring is fastened to the spring the spring would then again have to be HTed. I don't think anything like the material you mentioned is going to have enough spring to it!!!! What I am trying to say the spring has to be made from a metal that can be hardened to give it that spring action!!!

 

Here is a link to making of springs perhaps this info will help! http://www.madehow.com/Volume-6/Springs.html

 

Here is a link to a book on Materials for springs. https://books.google.com/books?id=7dODrrDI1kEC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=spring+material+that+can+be+heat+treated&source=bl&ots=5MnYoWgJoo&sig=Mu328Y0dv9izQdmrPztBjg0BLUs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBWoVChMIsYOQ_t7jxwIVB5-ACh0JNwug#v=onepage&q=spring%20material%20that%20can%20be%20heat%20treated&f=false

 

However, I will try and hook you up with someone on this forum that has vast knowledge of that era and he builds similar knives at times Here is link to his website,

 

http://www.wickellerbe.com/

 

At the bottom of the page is his email address. He is good man and when he tells you something it is from his years of experience!

 

As for the spring retainer. If you notice that end of the antler has been polished I am a guessing here that the retainer has been fitted fairly well. Slid into place and the pin is inserted thru, once it is peened lightly to hold it into places. A light bump at the outer ends of the retainer / cross as you referred to it, would turn them down slightly and into the antler, leaving little to snag on!

 

I have never made on of these but I know if I had questions on one Wick is the man I would go to for answers!! http://www.wickellerbe.com/

Edited September 7, 2015 by C Craft

[David Fischer]

Thanks for the advice, very helpful! Those books look awesome and I will add them to my collection.

I think I'll just finish my blade even though the spring will only be quasi-functional and look at it as a prototype. Wick Ellerbe has been nice enough to give me some pointers in the past on another forum, so maybe I'll show him my mock-up and ask him for some tips. He's a great guy and awesome when it comes to these kind of things.

And yeah, as far as the retainer thingy, that's pretty much what I've done on mine. I sort of shaped it freehand, slid it up the antler until it wouldn't go any further, pinned it in place, and them tapped down all the edges gently with a ball-peen hammer. Seemed to work okay, I was just terrified about cracking the antler the entire time.

[DanM]

I believe the Gene Chapman book with directions is this one http://www.artisanideas.com/product/antlerII/Antler-and-Iron-II-by-Gene-Chapman-%28Booklet%29.html

[C Craft]

And yeah, as far as the retainer thingy, that's pretty much what I've done on mine. I sort of shaped it freehand, slid it up the antler until it wouldn't go any further, pinned it in place, and them tapped down all the edges gently with a ball-peen hammer. Seemed to work okay, I was just terrified about cracking the antler the entire time.

 

The funny thing about something like that spring retainer is it is one of those parts you almost wear out fitting. Slide in on, adjust, slide it off, adjust, slide it back on, fit some more, and just before you wear the part out trying to get that perfect fit, you realize it was worth all the effort to make it look right!!

 

As for peening the coroners down on the retainer, a small punch, or a large nail set works well. Antler is pretty sturdy, your biggest worry is going to come when putting pressure on the sides, puts pressure on the slot cut for the blade. Find a piece of steel or for that matter wood to fill the slot. That way any pressure on the piece is transferred from one side to another. Thus protecting the slot from cracking, or at least giving it less chance to. There is no definite science to some of this stuff. I have seen things that I would have bet money on working, go real bad. Live and learn!!

 

As too that spring any steel that will hold up to pulling it out to a thin strip and can be re-tempered will work. It has to be annealed to get the roll for the ring and be bent in a curve that when fastened it will put pressure to the top where it catches the pin. If it won't hold a HT and temper if won't keep the tension you will need!

 

Perhaps something like a blade for, a metal cutting band saw, (horizontal/ vertical type) the blade they use are about 3/4" to 1" wide. I just don't know whether they can be annealed to do the shaping work and then HTed and tempered!!

 

I do know this Wick is your go to man on this question!

 

By the way I am pretty sure that knife you have pictured was made by http://www.threesistersforge.com/ The logo appears to be reversed but that could be one of those photography things. I still think it is one of his. You might want to contact him for info on how to. Some makers don't mind sharing and some do so its kind of a crapshoot but one thing is for sure he can't eat you! LOL

 

Best of luck and would like to see the pic when you get finished!

Edited September 7, 2015 by C Craft

[Wild Rose]

 

By the way I am pretty sure that knife you have pictured was made by http://www.threesistersforge.com/ The logo appears to be reversed but that could be one of those photography things. I still think it is one of his.

 

Nope that's one of Mike Mann's knives - his site is www.idahoknives.com - Mike's a nice guy although he's been dealing with some recent health issues. Drop him a line...

[Wild Rose]

that should be www.idahoknifeworks.com

[C Craft]

Thanks for correcting that Chuck. You are so right, Three Sister's Forge, http://threesistersforge.com/index.html has the image of the sun on the left overthree peaks. Idaho Knife Works, http://www.idahoknifeworks.com/repro.htm has the image of the sun on the right over three peaks. Never noticed how similar their makers marks were!!

 

Hey, Chuck is another that has great knowledge of this period! Ask him!!!

 

 

Hope your feeling better Chuck, last accounts of you I had you had been dealing with some health issues as well!!

Edited September 14, 2015 by C Craft