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Brian Dougherty

New Press Build

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I'm not much of a welder, but this project has certainly given me some practice!

welds.JPG

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Here is my pump frame welded up.  Now I need to drill some mounting holes.

Does anyone care to weigh in on if I should buy vibration mounts, or just bolt the engine to the frame?  In the end, this frame will be on wheels so I can easily move it.

 

Pump frame welded.JPG

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Thanks Brian. And looking good. 

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Ok, I'm sure you guys are getting bored with this thread by now, but I'm like a kid with a new toy :)

I couldn't resist hooking this thing up to compressed air to see it work again.  Here is a video of it crushing a can again, but this time its moving a tad faster :)

At 120psi from my compressor this would have maxed out at 1.5 tons.  (Less in the video since I never let the air pressure equalize in the cylinders.  Final capacity will be closer to 40 tons with the hydraulics.

I still have the press sitting on a piece of particle board on pipe rollers, so it is rocking around a bit as I fiddle with it.  at 600lbs, I don't think it will move much once it is on the ground.

https://youtu.be/HI-xBZ4z0JQ

Edited by Brian Dougherty

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Here are a few more progress pics.  I finished welding up the power unit cart, got it painted, and mounted the tank, engine, and pump.  Really, all I need are a couple hundred dollars worth of hoses and fittings and I could fire this thing up!  I intend to put quick disconnect couplings int he supply and return lines so that this becomes a generic hydraulic power unit for anything else I make.  Maybe a hydraulic twisting machine some day?

By the way, I highly recommend spending the money to buy a pump bracket for the engine.  It wasn't that much money, and is a bargain if you think about how well it lines everything up, and how much effort would have gone into fabricating it.

 

 

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On 4/23/2017 at 4:21 PM, Brian Dougherty said:

I'm not much of a welder, but this project has certainly given me some practice!

welds.JPG

those welds are a heck of a lot better than mine will be !!

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I got some unexpected shop time this morning, and after wrenching around Abit, I realized all I needed was some hydraulic fluid and I could fire this thing up.  I'm off to the store, a video will follow :)

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It is running!  In my eagerness to try it out, I forgot to make keepers for the dies, and they started to move out on me.  I need to get that fixed before I end up with the dies flying out at me.

I also need to learn to run this thing.  It is shocking how fast it moves metal.  It is obvious that I shouldn't be drawing out metal without using a depth stop to keep me from pinching all the way through the metal.

I have a couple of small leaks to fix, and I need to buy a better gauge.  After spending a grand on hydraulic components, you would think I would have not bought the $10 gauge off of Amazon, but I cheeped out on it.  If failed instantly!

I am embarrassed by the clumsiness of my forging in this video!

https://youtu.be/2emrPgn5EJ0

 

 

 

Edited by Brian Dougherty

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Brian, watched the video, "it's alive" !!!!!!!!! Congrats 

 

OK, so I am the last one to make assumptions. Especially since I have never ran one of these or for that matter even seen one run except in video. Something that jumped out at me though.  

Do you have to reverse the handle on the two way valve or is it spring loaded???? I assuming maybe the answer to that may be yes, you do have to reverse it manually!!

I could see maybe a spring that draws the handle back thus, reversing the detent valve and opening the dies. Then connecting  the detent valve to a foot treadle. It would  operate the detent valve to activate the hydraulics, compressing the die, (reversing spring could be added to the foot treadle set-up). Just thinking out loud don't now if that can be done or not. Anyway what I am talking about (the foot treadle set-up)  would leave you with both hands free! 

I understand the gauge thing. The little voice in the back of your head is screaming, (money money) and you opt for the cheaper gauge, been there done that!!! Hey now you make the little tweaks!!

The press is awesome, it sounds like it is in no strain at all with your set-up!! Two thumbs up!!!

Edited by C Craft

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Thanks C Craft,

The valve is indeed spring loaded, and I have seen quite a few people create a foot operated arrangement like you describe.  That is definitely something I would like to do at some point.  (Unless I luck into a foot operated valve before then)

In the video I was trying to feather the valve a bit to slow down the press.  It would mash that 7/8" bar to something like 1/16" in a heartbeat.  The next thing I do is going to be to make some depth stop "kiss blocks"  That bar in the video started out as about 8" long x 7/8" diameter, and I flattened it out to roughly 1/8" x 1" in two heats.  (albeit rather crudely :) )

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Nice Brian. That is a beast. Did it mash the flat dies already or is that scale build up and angle which makes them look dented? Also, the bottom dies look like they are racking on contact, is this normal with a press or is there some tweaking required? 

Given the amount of force this is pushing out and the racking would one ram of been sufficient? 

Thanks in advance for the reply and CONGRATULATIONS!!!

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Hi Chris,

I did indeed dimple the flat dies a bit by pressing on a small piece of steel, and allowing it to get to cold.  I made the dies out of 4140, but never heat treated them.  I'll probably take them apart and do that soon.

Most H frame presses I have seen rack a little.  It is hard to make something completely rigid.  In my case, the unwanted motion comes from two places:  There is a little bit of clearance between the guides and the uprights.  Any slightly off center force will take of that clearance.  The other cause is something I didn't notice until I watched the video, but it looks like the uprights are actually flexing a bit.  If I were to do it again, I would change the guide system around some.

I'm not sure what a press with half this capacity could do (1 cylinder), but there seem to be a lot out there in that size range.  I knew I could only afford one shot at this for now, so I went a little bigger.  I can always back off on the pressure relief valve a bit if this turns out to be too much for me to handle. (Supposedly, it is actually only set to 2500 PSI as it is)  However, I bet this will be like my grinder.  At first I thought my 1hp motor was all I would ever need, but now that I am used to it, I want more power :)

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On 5/9/2017 at 7:51 PM, Brian Dougherty said:

 If I were to do it again, I would change the guide system around some.

Thanks for the reply Brian. So as above, what would you change then? 

As for the build things bigger. Yep i get that, i just recently finished my first 2x72, i linked some pictures in the tools thread (though no one has commented :() about my build. Much to be desired, but it works for me. I put a 2 HP on that thing and it shreds metal like nothing. 

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I haven't given much thought to how I would redesign the guide system, but my original plan with the pieces of angle was to allow adjustments for wear over time.  However, it was pretty ill-conceived, so I had to rigidly colt them in place.  I can still shim my UHMW pads to accommodate for wear, but it isn't what I had planned.

I think I were doing this again, I would consider making the cross bars out of 3 layers of 1" plate with the outer layers being just long enough to fit inside the uprights, and use the two outer layers a guides.  That would also make the dies much easier to mount.

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Amazing build, I like how the weight is distributed on the lower side, but am curious how the dies coming up would feel like. I imagine it would just take some getting used to. Great build, very impressive!

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Brian, some nice work

but..... (and I say this with all good intent)

Having 2 cylinders apply equal force is not easy to do.

It will always result in binding to some degree if the load is not evenly shared.

Making the side guides long will help some, but it all must be very rigid to prevent flexing and thus binding.

There are numerous discussions about this "problem" on the /net.  Just google hydraulic cylinder synchronization

Some suggestions can get quite expensive; while others that may not be so expensive fall short of achieving equal forces.

Mechanical linkages have a simplistic appeal.  Electronic control is also feasible, but the $$ mount up fast.

It seems that a few years ago, we ran into this kind of situation and there was some commercial device that would actually do this;

but for now I can't recall just what it was..maybe something along the lines of a flow-control valve

I will check into it some more and will post what I find.

 

gatz

 

 

 

Edited by gatz

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Brian,

 

 The one thing I see in the video that worries me is the severe flex/racking. Par of it is likely due to the uprights simply not being beefy enough, part of it is likely due to a lack of cylinder sync, and I'm betting part of it is due to the UHMW bearing blocks compressing some. Also, if you plan to use combo dies like that, being off-center with the work piece isn't helping any. You might want to consider either metal-on-metal with grease for the bearing surfaces, or at least using MUCH thinner UHMW. 

 

-d

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The device I was referring to is called a FLOW DIVIDER

They can be rotary (gear) type or spool-valve type.

Do a search for either or both.....there are lots of brands out there.

Neither type are 100% accurate but get very close.

A mechanical method might be a better/less costly route to take.

You could have a gear-rack on either side, with a common shaft stretching across with gears affixed at each end.

The gears would have to be timed with the racks.  The components would have to be substantial; enough to ensure that the cross-member stays even under load.

There are also "parallel linkage" systems that can accomplish the same thing, although they can get a bit bulky for what you're building.

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Thanks for the input gentlemen.  Part of the reason I did this as a WIP was to make it easier for the next person to make their design decisions so I wanted everyone to see the good the bad, an the ugly with my build.  As much as people talk about presses, it is actually hard to find useful design information.  The Baston book is good, but not really very helpful for an H frame press in spite of the addendum he did.  McDanile's book is very nice, and gives a lot of information about uses, and die designs, but it was not intended as a design guide for the press itself.

One of the big controversies about H frame presses is the one cylinder vs two decision.  Like many things on the interweb, this has become shrouded in myth and legend, and bad information.  The real challenge with using two cylinders on an H frame press is not synchronizing the cylinders.  An H frame press will always have a tendency for the dies to go out of parallel any time you have an off center load.  Using only one cylinder does not help this, and in fact probably makes it worse.

A few things could have been done better to make the system more rigid:

1. The divider valves mentioned above essentially meter the fluid so that the same amount goes into each cylinder.  Using one of these with twin cylinders is probably the best way to make sure that the dies stay parallel.  However, I suspect the price of one that can flow 22GPM is pretty high.  (I haven't looked for one one yet)  I'm also not sure what happens  as the cylinders slowly loose synchronization over time.   I decided to try without one at first because I have yet to see one on any forging press.  I'm sure there is one somewhere, but the builder hasn't put it on the interweb yet.

2. One thing I would change if I were doing this again is to make the moving die plate taller.  I use a 6" tall piece, and if I had made it 10" or 12" I would have been able to easily create more bearing surface against the uprights.  I would probably have made the whole moving die plate from 3 pieces of 1" thick steel with a longer piece sandwiched between two outer plates that were the same width as the space between the uprights so that the outer pieces could at as guides.

3. The UHMW was simply a bad idea.  I was trying to make a machine that could run with zero clearance, and designed the UHMW pads as a wear surface that could be adjusted.  This was just plain wrong.  some day I'll replace them with steel blocks.

All of the above being said, I am quickly learning how to use this press to a great advantage.  There is a lot I can do with die designs to minimize any tendency to get pulled out of parallel.  The other day I was able to squeeze a 1.5" wide by 6" long x 3" high billet down to a 1/2" thick bar in 3 or 4 heats.

If anything, I went a little overboard on the power of the press.  With the 1.5" diameter drawing dies I have, It would have easily pinched that 3" high billet in two pieces.  I can see where 20 tons is probably plenty for most blade work.  However, I am also assuming that I will some day wish I made it bigger :)

I've been catching up on a lot of projects for the last month so I haven't had a lot of play time.  When I get some more time, I'll post videos that show more of the goods and bads with this design.

 

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@Brian Dougherty Thanks for continually adding to this thread. 

I have found an industrial 50t hydraulic shop press which is single cylinder on a sliding head. Top mounted ram. The only issue is the speed which is 12-15mm per second. .5-.7" per second. From what i understand this is a bit slow for forging? Am i correct? 

Anyone please feel free to pipe in here. 

Thanks. 

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