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grpaavola

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Hiya!

 

So I started a seax and am going for a wolf-tooth!

 

I welded up some of my left over shovel and bandsaw blade for the edge.

 

I am planing on a twisted spine made with wrought wagon wheel, steel plow wheel and bandsaw blade while the core will just be straight wrought wagon wheel.

 

They are about 1cm square give or take, core and spine 13inches long and edge about 12inches.

 

I chiseled into the edge today and felt totally out of my league.

 

Please Fiery ones help me out... How to I not mess this up if I haven't already?

 

IMG_20160512_170523044_zps9rmpszej.jpg

 

-Gabriel

The fundamental cause of trouble is that the stupid are cocksure, while the intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher
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Gabriel,

 

I don't have any advice but I do like what you've got going on. I'll be watching with interest.

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I've tried two methods for wolf teeth so far (that worked).

 

One is to forge the teeth into your edge bar, then at welding heat forge the core bar into the teeth, welding them together in the process. This requires that the core be much more malleable/softer than the edge bar, wrought and high carbon being a good mix.

 

The other method is to forge the teeth into the core bar, then make matching teeth in the edge bar by either forging or grinding, then weld those together.

 

Neither method seemed to be superior to the other, as far as looks go, the first method has less prep but the second method might be a bit more foolproof. Clean surfaces is a must either way you go, as is avoiding drawing the bar out lengthwise while welding and forming as much as possible.

 

This thread might help... http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=26795&hl=

 

Also, this thread shows the results of my tests...http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=27605&hl=

Edited by GEzell
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George Ezell, bladesmith

" How much useful knowledge is lost by the scattered forms in which it is ushered to the world! How many solitary students spend half their lives in making discoveries which had been perfected a century before their time, for want of a condensed exhibition of what is known."
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I've only done one experiment with it so far! The best advice I can give though is the shape of the hot cutter you use to create the teeth is all important if you are looking for a historical look. That and the thickness of the wrought you use to forge the teeth has to be more than you think.

 

Also drawing out is very hard to avoid unless you forge the basic tip shape and then grind the rest, which is a necessary evil I think.

 

This is one that I did a few days ago. You can see the chisel marks aren't very even or deep, but the shape isn't too far off. I need to make my hot cutter a little more acute and use thicker wrought iron.

 

 

IMG_3213.JPG

 

My method was to forge the edge bar, let it cool, and then forge the wrought iron bar near white heat into the spaces of the steel edge. I would quench the steel edge to keep it cool and then heat up the iron again. Once you are close, and the teeth are like keys, they match together, you can clean the surfaces and weld the whole thing together!

 

I hope that helps some!

 

 

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The method that works well for me is similar to what Emiliano and George recommend:

 

- forge the teeth into the edge bar, wait for it to cool down

- heat up the wrought and press the wrought into the teeth

- clean everything up really well and then forge weld

 

I usually don't draw a lot during forge welding and try to keep things mostly to the original dimension. That implies a really good fit and everything being super clean.

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I haven't made any blades (or spears) with wolfs tooth yet, but i have made a whole lot of test pieces (Emiliano was at my place for the first real successful one at reproducing the historic pattern) the things that I've found

 

1) Having too sharp of a point on the hotcut hardy left sharp little points that wouldnt close up compeltely, I rounded the tip of my hotcut hardy, but it's still quite 'pointy'

 

2) as Emiliano said, you need a lot more material for what you forge / press into the teeth than you think. Part of this may be because I'm using my hydraulic press to press the hot wrought into the teeth, and that causes some 'outward' push that folds over the edges of the edge billet. If I were working with more historical material that really 'flowed' well and doing it by hand I could get away with less

 

3) Have your tooth billet AT length, dont plan on drawing it out any at all or the pattern distorts and you get waves instead of teeth

 

4) CLEAN surfaces. This is where the little blade that Emiliano and I made with the successful test at my place went wrong. I'd wire wheel the hell out of both surfaces before putting them back together and welding. The mistake I made on that first one was not cleaning it off thoroughly after keying the pieces together and before the weld. Particularly because of the 'fold over' at the edges of the billet, this trapped crud at the very bottoms of the teeth at the center of the billet. This meant that it was a clean weld at the edges , but after grinding in a little for bevels tiny voids were found at the bottoms of each of the teeth, because there was no way for trapped crud to escape.... make sure you dont have any crud / scale / etc at the interface of the teeth before you weld.

 

teeth.jpg

 

note the double struck tooth here, where I accidentally double tapped and missed my hole. You can see here what i mean by squishing over the edge when using the press too.

wolftoothexperiment4.jpg

 

And see here how it actually filled in completely in the billet after the weld (3rd tooth)

wolftoothexperiment.jpg

 

Iron is amazingly plastic and will fill in all the little gaps, as long as it's either very clean, or has a place for any crud in the way to escape.

 

 

Good luck! I love seeing more and more wolfstooth patterns that match the historic pattern!

Edited by Justin Mercier

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Justin "Tharkis" Mercier

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Thank you so much guys!

 

None of you said I messed it up and best to start over! :lol:

 

So for me, that is a good first step...

 

George, I did notice that little tool you made up in the first thread. I had wondered, about a year back, if they had used anything like that back in the day. Maybe a modern take would be to cut the groves in a railroad track, and use it like an anvil. That way you can see how deep you are cutting in as you smack it down. I think I will try it for the next one! (Yep, I have fallen for the seax, HARD.)

 

I started filing into the groves the other day to clean them up and true them a bit.

Pray to the old gods of 'smithing if you have any inclination.

 

-Gabriel

 

Last thing, I don't have a press or power hammer... So I will go very gingerly :D

Edited by grpaavola
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The fundamental cause of trouble is that the stupid are cocksure, while the intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher
follow me on Instagram @raggedravenforge

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Remember to keep this thread updated with progression pics and info! This is something I want to do myself in the not too far future, and it will be my first time as well! :lol:;)

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Monday was a bad day forging wise...

 

I had the damnedest time trying get the teeth of the blade to cut into the wrought iron.

 

So, I just forge welded it up.

 

I think I am gonna try it a different way. Like make a chisel with the teeth already in it.

 

Maybe convert my blacksmith helper a bit...

 

-Gabriel

 

Hopefully tomorrow will have pics and success!

The fundamental cause of trouble is that the stupid are cocksure, while the intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher
follow me on Instagram @raggedravenforge

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So far...

 

IMG_20160520_142920044_zpsb1zllxot.jpg

 

What you think?

 

-Gabriel

The fundamental cause of trouble is that the stupid are cocksure, while the intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher
follow me on Instagram @raggedravenforge

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HA!

 

yeah... I was just able to do some rough grinding today, and I hope (fingers crossed) it comes out.

 

Thanks Alan!

 

-G

The fundamental cause of trouble is that the stupid are cocksure, while the intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher
follow me on Instagram @raggedravenforge

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I ground and polished today...

 

IMG_20160521_152333224_zpslwvttrmb.jpg

 

I did find an inclusion so I hope I can get it out.

 

IMG_20160521_153602_zpsisclawi2.jpg

 

The blade is 11inches long 1.5 inches wide and the spine is about 4.5mm thick.

 

IMG_20160521_152651415_zpspgycboph.jpg

 

IMG_20160521_153340_zpsr52vwvp7.jpg

 

What you think?

 

 

Questions comments are welcome...

 

Oh, and any suggestions of what I should look at to finish this out is much, much appreciated!

Been looking and looking but I just can't find a style I like for this...

 

-Gabriel

The fundamental cause of trouble is that the stupid are cocksure, while the intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher
follow me on Instagram @raggedravenforge

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That looks great!

George Ezell, bladesmith

" How much useful knowledge is lost by the scattered forms in which it is ushered to the world! How many solitary students spend half their lives in making discoveries which had been perfected a century before their time, for want of a condensed exhibition of what is known."
Buffon


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Thanks Wes!

Thanks George!

 

-Gabriel

The fundamental cause of trouble is that the stupid are cocksure, while the intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher
follow me on Instagram @raggedravenforge

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Thanks Niels!

 

I am leaning heavily toward the Migration era style. I have some preliminary sketches of the bolster (or is it guard?).

 

But should I just keep trying to grind out that long inclusion or should I inlay some silver wire?76b66a6a-e4da-40f8-b12e-3af9b9b3dcd4_zps

The fundamental cause of trouble is that the stupid are cocksure, while the intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher
follow me on Instagram @raggedravenforge

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thanks guys!

 

Justin that was exactly what I was thinking!

 

OK, so I have been trying to wrap my head around what kind of seax this would be, what time period and where would it have been found?

So far, I have Norse and Frankish. Can anyone tell me what time period this shape and type of blade this would have been (the history)?

 

-Gabriel

The fundamental cause of trouble is that the stupid are cocksure, while the intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher
follow me on Instagram @raggedravenforge

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if you drop the tip down just a tad it would fit right in the Merovingian period for Frankish continental broadsaxes

 

Here's one from my collection , badly decayed, but twist core pattern welded, with scribed lines.

 

DSCN2632.JPG

DSCN2639.JPG

---

Justin "Tharkis" Mercier

www.tharkis.com

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definitely carve lines in it. It is up to you, whether you want to drop the point is up to you. I thik I would, but that is just me.

It has been great to watch these techniques. I may have to try them some day (the Chinese did this, too. They called them horse's tooth).

please visit my website http://www.professorsforge.com/

 

“Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living things, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on the earth. I said then and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” E. V. Debs

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Thanks guys!

 

Kevin, you are totally correct on that inlay. I took a silver sharpie to it to see how it would look, and have been comparing both sides. It just makes it pop more! Now I just need to learn how to do it?

Engraver or dremel?

 

I am going to keep the tip as is. Am I correct in thinking that that is a norse style?

I have been making my eyes cross and brain wrinkle just to find the historical context of this blade style, so if anyone has a resource I should look into it would be much appreciated...

 

-Gabriel

The fundamental cause of trouble is that the stupid are cocksure, while the intelligent are full of doubt. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher
follow me on Instagram @raggedravenforge

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You are correct in thinking that tip is a Norwegian langseax style, and since you really can't drop the tip without throwing off the pattern just call it a Merovingian pattern-weld in the Norwegian style of 200 years later. ;) Or a remarkably short Norwegian langseax in the Merovingian pattern of 200 years earlier... It helps to research historical accuracy before you make the blade if you want it to be accurate. :P Don't worry about it, it's a nice blade!

 

On the inlay, you're going to have to do the undercuts with a graver. You can cut the initial line with a dremel, but I think using a graver the whole way would be better. The dremel leaves a round-bottomed groove which you will still have to cut out, in other words. And it's easier to control the depth with a graver. Once you get used to how it cuts, that is. The steps are as follows:

 

fully annealed wire

 

flat graver the width of or slightly less than the wire diameter

 

onglette (point) graver

 

optional chisel graver.

 

Cut the line with the flat graver. The depth should be half or slightly more than half the diameter of the wire.

 

undercut the sides of the groove with the onglette. This will push up the edges a little, and if you want more use the chisel graver to really drive a wedge into the sides of the groove.

 

Lay the wire in the groove and using a small polished-faced hammer OR a polished round-nosed blunt miniature fullering tool sort of thing firmly tap the wire into the groove. Go over it with the polished blunt chiselly/fullering thing to ensure you've mashed it into the grooves as far as it's gonna go. If you've driven up the edges of you groove this will also drive them back down for a solid lock on the wire.

 

drawfile flush.

 

Pray you did this with wrought iron, 'cause high carbon steel is a $%$^^ to inlay, particularly if it's been hardened and tempered! B)

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