Devin D Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Worked on a couple blades today and lets say it didn't go so well. Made a 5 inch blade and a kukri ish style blade ) probably 16 inches long) out of 1095. Managed to crack the big one during hardening and slightly warp the smaller one.....and singe my beard when forge went out and reignited shooting a perfectly timed flame out. Not entirely sure where I went wrong with the process. Started with the long blade. Heated just above non magnetic, and quenched in canola oil....didn't seem to pass the file test. Put through a normalizing run and let it cool for a couple hours. Then did little knife in water. Didn't notice slight warp. So did the big one. Got an almost perfect half circle crack and warp. Not sure where I went really wrong. Really frustrated with crack and even more with forge problems. The burners keep getting hot and like blows itself out or ignites in burner tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Crawford Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Water quenching is always risky even if everything else is done right. 1095 needs to get in the quench pretty fast. Did you preheat your oil? I've noticed that makes a pretty big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Dougherty Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Others can give you better advice on the burner tube, better than I. About the quenching: I bet your long blade hardened in the canola oil. There was probably a decarb layer after the quench that was soft. I have been fooled by this before as it can take a few strokes with a file to get through it before the file starts to skate. Quenching 1095 in water is very risky at best. I do it sometimes in brine with a thin clay coating, but it isn't something I would recommend for a first time. The warp in the small can probably be fixed in the tempering oven by clamping it to a straight bar with shims in place to "Over straighten" it a bit. Keep plugging along. Three steps forward, two steps back -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Simonet Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Another thing to add is to make sure you heat it a good bit over non magnetic. I usually get it to a bright orange, maybe a little over, And that's in night time darkness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 14 minutes ago, Mason Simonet said: Another thing to add is to make sure you heat it a good bit over non magnetic. I usually get it to a bright orange, maybe a little over, And that's in night time darkness. Actually, 1095 doesn't need to go too much over nonmagnetic. That'll just give you grain growth. About 50 degrees hotter is all you need, and then as fast as possible into hot canola. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Simonet Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Ahh, ok. I work with 1080 but thought 1095 was the same process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrod Miller Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 16 minutes ago, Mason Simonet said: Ahh, ok. I work with 1080 but thought 1095 was the same process. 1095 needs to be slightly hotter than 1080, and 1080 only needs to be just above non-magnetic (as it goes into the quench, so a touch hotter if it takes a while to get from forge to quench tank). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Dougherty Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Alan Longmire said: ... and then as fast as possible into hot canola. This is an important point. With 1095, you literally only have a couple of seconds to get from the transition temperature to below 800 degrees F. Don't dilly-dally when going from the forge to the oil. -Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 52 minutes ago, Brian Dougherty said: This is an important point. With 1095, you literally only have a couple of seconds to get from the transition temperature to below 800 degrees F. Don't dilly-dally when going from the forge to the oil. Less than one second, actually. That's why some people overheat it, so it will stay above the transformation point during the time it takes to get to the quench. That is poor practice, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vern Wimmer Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Ah, 1095. My first blade to be forged from real "store bought steel", instead of something re-purposed, was going to be a beauty and show what I could do. Trying to forge it to "perfect" probably didn't help much but when it came to the quench I was sure I was headed for fame, after all, they said it was a "water quenching" steel.......... No more being overly cautious with mystery steels and using "sissy" oil.......I didn't just hear the "ting" ,I was using long pliers, I felt it. An organic, holistic learning experience. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin D Posted September 28, 2017 Author Share Posted September 28, 2017 Thanks for the info guys. I just realized this time I didn't preheat the canola oil. I did clean off the blade in am area before the file test, but the file still left marks on the blade.(not deep ones) Unless that is normal.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 That is normal for a few strokes if you have a bit of decarburization from an oxidizing forge atmosphere. Once you get past that it should skate. Unless the cold oil was too slow to harden it fully, of course. The oil needs to be about 130 degrees F, just hot enough you don't want to leave your finger in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joël Mercier Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 I realized I tend to get a little excited when the time comes to quench. So I make a list of things to do and NOT do before I begin . This way I won't forget to heat oil. Also won't put my knife in till the forge reached the right temp. Will also not forget to put a piece of wood inside the pipe to burn oxygen....etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Mulkey Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Devin, For once I'm going to stick my neck out and disagree with the advice that you've been given here. Firstly, 1095 is not a steel for beginners. It is far too finicky on the heat treat. You have but .4 seconds to get it from 1475 to below the pearlite nose and you won't do that with canola oil, heated to 120 or not. If you really want to stay with 1095, buy some Park's 50. Otherwise go to a more forgiving steel like 1084 or 5160 which will quench just fine in canola oil. Whatever steel that you decide on using, try to stay with it until you know it inside & out. If you switch steels constantly, you will never know why one of your blades doesn't perform like your others and it's because they all H/T differently. [Make at least 50 blades of the same steel before going on to other steels.] 2 Gary ABS,CKCA,ABKA,KGA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vern Wimmer Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 1 hour ago, Joël Mercier said: I realized I tend to get a little excited when the time comes to quench. So I make a list of things to do and NOT do before I begin . This way I won't forget to heat oil. Also won't put my knife in till the forge reached the right temp. Will also not forget to put a piece of wood inside the pipe to burn oxygen....etc I have to constantly tell myself."Get tempering oven up to heat BEFORE even getting forge to heat. Admire your your handiwork AFTER the first temper." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joël Mercier Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 80crv2 seems relatively forgiving and also superior to 1084 for almost the same price. The vanadium helps slow grain growth and the steel overall receives a lot of praise from the community. They say it's basically 5160 toughness with 1084 hardness. My first knife is 1084 but my next ones will certainly be 80crv2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerrod Miller Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Gary Mulkey said: Devin, For once I'm going to stick my neck out and disagree with the advice that you've been given here. Firstly, 1095 is not a steel for beginners. It is far too finicky on the heat treat. You have but .4 seconds to get it from 1475 to below the pearlite nose and you won't do that with canola oil, heated to 120 or not. If you really want to stay with 1095, buy some Park's 50. Otherwise go to a more forgiving steel like 1084 or 5160 which will quench just fine in canola oil. Whatever steel that you decide on using, try to stay with it until you know it inside & out. If you switch steels constantly, you will never know why one of your blades doesn't perform like your others and it's because they all H/T differently. [Make at least 50 blades of the same steel before going on to other steels.] Gary is right that this is not a beginner's steel (I still can't figure out why so many people are so fond of it, there are steels that will perform just as well that are way easier to HT). I thought I'd pull out the good old ASM Heat Treater's Guide and take a look at the Isothermal (TTT) diagram for 1095. There are 2 listed (sorry, I really don't feel like scanning them in at the moment). The first one lists a composition of 0.89C and 0.29Mn. Austenitized at 1625 *F, you have just under 1 second to beat the nose and about 3 seconds until 50% conversion. The second chart lists a modified chemistry of 1.13C and 0.30Mn. Austenitized at 1670 *F, you have just under 1 second to reach the 50% conversion line (the nose is in the "negative time" region, aka not possible). The book also recommends quenching from 1475 *F (note the discrepancies in suggestion and charts given). It says you can get full hardness in oil for rounds under 0.19" from that range. Sadly, I don't have my book of just TTT diagrams with me at the moment for more reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEzell Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 From my experience, along with what the experts have written, 1095 can be oil hardened in thinner sections but you can expect the autohamon effect... I get a a little autohamon quenching 1095 in parks#50, and a lot in warmed canola. From my experiments, agitation during the quench is extremely important with shallow hardening steels. Plunge it into the oil, and use a slicing motion, waving the blade back and forth but NOT side to side until the blade has cooled to black. Pull it out, check for warps and quickly straighten as needed, then back into the oil until it's cool enough to handle... Then wipe clean and into the tempering oven. 4 George Ezell, bladesmith" How much useful knowledge is lost by the scattered forms in which it is ushered to the world! How many solitary students spend half their lives in making discoveries which had been perfected a century before their time, for want of a condensed exhibition of what is known."Buffonview some of my work RelicForge on facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin D Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 On 9/29/2017 at 6:44 PM, GEzell said: From my experience, along with what the experts have written, 1095 can be oil hardened in thinner sections but you can expect the autohamon effect... I get a a little autohamon quenching 1095 in parks#50, and a lot in warmed canola. From my experiments, agitation during the quench is extremely important with shallow hardening steels. Plunge it into the oil, and use a slicing motion, waving the blade back and forth but NOT side to side until the blade has cooled to black. Pull it out, check for warps and quickly straighten as needed, then back into the oil until it's cool enough to handle... Then wipe clean and into the tempering oven. How do you go about quickly straightening it without cracking it? Doesnt the steel become very hard but brittle before the tempering part of the process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin D Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 Thanks for all the replies guys. I have a long ways to go lol. Not that I didn't expect that, but wasting materials that are somewhat expensive considering shipping is always a bummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vern Wimmer Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 1 hour ago, Devin D said: How do you go about quickly straightening it without cracking it? Doesnt the steel become very hard but brittle before the tempering part of the process? Immediately after the blade is pulled from the quenchant (generall as soon as it loses color and goes gray/black) there is a small window of time when the blade is still pliable and can be straighten in th hands. It is a very short time but if one is prepared it can be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEzell Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 You have a window between approximately 800° and 450° where the blade has missed the pearlite nose but hasn't started turning into martensite yet... That is, the blade is still soft. During this time you can fix any warps by hand, with heavy gloves of course. Once it drops below 400-450° martensite (hardened steel) begins to form and it starts becoming brittle. George Ezell, bladesmith" How much useful knowledge is lost by the scattered forms in which it is ushered to the world! How many solitary students spend half their lives in making discoveries which had been perfected a century before their time, for want of a condensed exhibition of what is known."Buffonview some of my work RelicForge on facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin D Posted October 6, 2017 Author Share Posted October 6, 2017 On 10/1/2017 at 11:01 PM, Vern Wimmer said: Immediately after the blade is pulled from the quenchant (generall as soon as it loses color and goes gray/black) there is a small window of time when the blade is still pliable and can be straighten in th hands. It is a very short time but if one is prepared it can be enough. Would some sort of plates in a vice work? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeb Camper Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 Yes, check out the vise mounted thingies near the bottom of this post you can make much simpler ones, but you get the idea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin D Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 Would two flat plates the size of the knife work or do you need it setup so as to over correct ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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