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Jlinner

Burner Placement

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It's 12 inches wide, how thick should refrac cement be or should I line with wool and cement?

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2 inches of wool at least, coated with a refractory cement (Satanite, Mizzou or Kast-o-Lite), and then coated with an IR Reflective material (this is optional, but a good idea).  The refractory doesn't need to be super thick.  I think my Mizzou is like .5" at most.  

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Hi Wes, what brand of reflective material would you recommend?  And thank you for responding.

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I have used three so far; Satanite, Mizzou, and Green patch 421.  I like Mizzou the best, it sets up like concrete and is super tough.  I would say to use which ever one you can get the easiest.  I can get Mizzou locally and cheaply, so its what I use.  If you have any kiln or pottery supply stores close by, they will have lots of stuff that you can use to build forges.

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19 minutes ago, Jlinner said:

Here is what I have so far, suggestions on a round swirl forge.

20171121_185154.jpg

 

17 minutes ago, Jlinner said:

It's 12 inches wide, how thick should refrac cement be or should I line with wool and cement?

Were it me I would consider rolling the cylinder to the right 'till the tubes were about at 2:00 and cutting them off and reshaping so they enter at an obtuse angle. Then I'd line with 2 one-inch layers of insulation, followed with refactory coating. I'd also consider adding a support shelf on both ends with the rear one sized to allow the back to be closed off with an appropriate brick . I'd also consider a port for a thermocouple. Hey, while you're doing it plan for versatilityB)

Edited by Vern Wimmer
Monkey thumbs

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I have a second tank I think I will build.

20171121_195945.jpg

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5 minutes ago, Wes Detrick said:

I have used three so far; Satanite, Mizzou, and Green patch 421.  I like Mizzou the best, it sets up like concrete and is super tough.  I would say to use which ever one you can get the easiest.  I can get Mizzou locally and cheaply, so its what I use.  If you have any kiln or pottery supply stores close by, they will have lots of stuff that you can use to build forges.

What is this IR reflective material you speak of?

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I bought this from a website.

20171121_200330.jpg

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4 hours ago, Alan Longmire said:

Good choice.  To elaborate on the square ones with top vertical burners, they were designed for horse shoeing.  Farriers don't care about oxidizing atmospheres, decarburization, or scale.  They just want something that will quickly produce a good orange heat.  For that reason, coupled with that type of forge, for years it was a tenet of faith among blacksmiths that gas forges produced heavier scale (they did), and that it was impossible to forge weld in gas (it was).  It took lots of tinkering with forge and burner design to produce a gas forge that had an adjustible atmosphere that could reach welding heat.  With today's bladesmithing community that is very much concerned with oxidizing atmospheres, scale, and decarb, we have many designs that will run a slightly reducing atmosphere and will let you weld without flux.  A far cry from the old days of 30 years ago!

I would love to weld without flux.

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I'v e never used Sairset, but it is rated up to 2900F so that should work just fine.  

An IR Reflective is a material that you can coat the inside of your forge that helps with efficiency.  To my understanding, they help reflect the heat back into the forge, so you have less of it escaping through your refractory and insulation (since they are not perfect of course).  If you want to get to welding heats, then I recommend that you use one.

There are a few different IR materials that are popular.  The one that everyone always talks about is ITC-100, which is stupid expensive.  I have used it and it is good, but not worth the price when there are more affordable options.  Wayne Coe swears (and sells) by Metrikote IR and since I have never used it, I have no reason to doubt his word.  I use HYB-UV, which is produced by the people at Hybrid Burners and it works great. 

Both Metrikote IR and HYB-UV are around the same price, so use whichever one floats your boat.  

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5 hours ago, Alan Longmire said:

Good choice.  To elaborate on the square ones with top vertical burners, they were designed for horse shoeing.  Farriers don't care about oxidizing atmospheres, decarburization, or scale.  They just want something that will quickly produce a good orange heat.  For that reason, coupled with that type of forge, for years it was a tenet of faith among blacksmiths that gas forges produced heavier scale (they did), and that it was impossible to forge weld in gas (it was).  It took lots of tinkering with forge and burner design to produce a gas forge that had an adjustible atmosphere that could reach welding heat.  With today's bladesmithing community that is very much concerned with oxidizing atmospheres, scale, and decarb, we have many designs that will run a slightly reducing atmosphere and will let you weld without flux.  A far cry from the old days of 30 years ago!

I would love to weld without flux.

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Can anyone recommend a good reliable pyrometer?

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6 hours ago, Wes Detrick said:

I have used this one for years.  No bells and whistles, but easy to use. Get a thermocouple with ceramic sheaths; it helps probe life.

Thanks Wes, I just bought the probe you suggested.

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18 hours ago, Jlinner said:

image.png

 

So we are talking the same issues with this Majestic brand forge as well, just for example purposes and not baggin on them.

These forged are complete garbage. Even with all the burners running you better get the individual butterfly valves tuned because they get to hot to touch while running. After shut down they practically glow. The burners suck and are very inneficient. Trash design all around

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2 minutes ago, Sam Salvati said:

These forged are complete garbage. Even with all the burners running you better get the individual butterfly valves tuned because they get to hot to touch while running. After shut down they practically glow. The burners suck and are very inneficient. Trash design all around

Thank you for your opinion Sam, do you have an efficient burner design you can share with me?

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If you don't want to use a blower fan look up the "T-rex" burner and Chili Forge's "ElDiablo". Of course now you are in to the "blown v venturi" debate. Might want to look at the pinned threads on forge builds and do a Google search for threads. (Google search works better than the Forum's on-board search function)

Edited by Vern Wimmer
Morning, pre-coffee

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Here are the burners I'm running.Burners.jpgs I'm running.

Edited by Jlinner

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I started over and made a bit of progress on the 2 o'clock swirl forge. Any suggestions from here?

 

 

20171127_201110.jpg

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Legs, insulation, coating and fire it up. Looks good. Make sure that no part of your burners is in the forge area, heat chamber, at all. They should be just far enough back that, after starting you do not see any flame just the chamber heating and glowing. 

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Woohoo, tested the burners and have a very nice "swirl" effect going.

Whats a good way to get the wool to stick to the inside of the forge? Cement or ?

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Ideally you just roll out enough to completely cover it, cut that, roll it back up, and unroll it inside the forge.  The butted ends are usually enough to hold it.  It can help to stand it on end, especially when coating with refractory.  If all else fails, a few screws through the shell will certainly do it. Just long enough to go about 3/4" into the wool.  

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9 minutes ago, Alan Longmire said:

Ideally you just roll out enough to completely cover it, cut that, roll it back up, and unroll it inside the forge.  The butted ends are usually enough to hold it.  It can help to stand it on end, especially when coating with refractory.  If all else fails, a few screws through the shell will certainly do it. Just long enough to go about 3/4" into the wool.  

Thanks Alan.

I have wool rigidizer to go on before the cement or should I not use the rigidizer and just use the cement?

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