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Vern Wimmer

Definitions and history of "Wootz" and such

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12 hours ago, Vern Wimmer said:

That was a terrific program on NOVA. It does bring up the question about different sword/weapon styles across different cultures and there is some hazy kind of "chicken or egg"  question about steel leading weapons development or vice versa . It really comes to mind when one sees the interest in the making Tamahagane and other Japanese varieties and that, of course, brings up the question of similarities and differences between Japanese crucible and Wootz.

Japanese tamahagane/shingane was (and is) really high quality bloomey steel. The ferrous material is never melted. The tatara furnaces used for smelting japanese bloomery did not produce high enough temperatures to melt iron. It's acually really similar to what we did in Europe before the industrial revolution.

Crucible and wootz has been explained here before. The big difference is that the ferrous material is completely melted due to the higher temperature of that type of furnace. Because of this the iron needed to be sealed in an airtight container, a crucible.

 

Edit: Maybie you knew this already and I misunderstood your question?

Edited by Viktor Johansson

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17 hours ago, Tim Mitchell said:

fiction, I have yet to see one that was actual history.  If anyone has accurate first hand accounts then please let me know.

First hand accounts may be difficult to obtain ;-)

Back to process, how does one determine quantities of materials and even a list of materials to combine? Do we think the different historical compositions were intentional or circumstantial?

Oh yeah, can we get this pinned?

Edited by Joshua States
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18 minutes ago, Viktor Johansson said:

Japanese tamahagane/shingane was (and is) really high quality bloomey steel. The ferrous material is never melted. The tatara furnaces used for smelting japanese bloomery did not produce high enough temperatures to melt iron. It's acually really similar to what we did in Europe before the industrial revolution.

I think it was melted and the carbon was backed off by the slag..I run a mini Tatara furnace analog, all of the bloom material runs to below the air inlet. Inclusions , yes,   unmelted material no. Some European smelters smelt at a slow rate having a bloom form above the air inlet. In that case the slag outruns the iron..in the Tatara furnace the iron outruns the slag. To the bottom of the furnace. You can see this process in earlier posts on "Pit Charcoal" or "The morning After". Sometimes incorrect information gets repeated, again and again...in that case we do the experiments for ourselves to clear things up.

 

 

Edited by Jan Ysselstein

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10 minutes ago, Joshua States said:

Oh yeah, can we get this pinned?

I agree this should be pinned! The amount of info already posted here should qualify it to be pinned:)

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11 minutes ago, Viktor Johansson said:

 

 

Edit: Maybie you knew this already and I misunderstood your question?

There are few things on this subject that anyone can claim to "know all about".

What I thought I was sure about gets eroded everytime they open another grave, find a "hoard" , uncover another site or someone fires up their personal smelter.

I sometimes think we know more about space than we do our own past. That is why we need to keep examining it and moving the pieces around so they fit here and there.

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30 minutes ago, Jan Ysselstein said:

I think it was melted and the carbon was backed off by the slag..I run a mini Tatara furnace analog, all of the bloom material runs to below the air inlet. Inclusions , yes,   unmelted material no. Some European smelters smelt at a slow rate having a bloom form above the air inlet. In that case the slag outruns the iron..in the Tatara furnace the iron outruns the slag. To the bottom of the furnace. You can see this process in earlier posts on "Pit Charcoal" or "The morning After". Sometimes incorrect information get repeated again and again...in that case we do the experiments for ourselves to clear things up.

 

 

I don't know about your Tatara. Maybie you do melt it. Do you load it with charcoal from wood?

Edit: Looking at your thread "Pit Charcoal" it does appear to be partially melted. Very nice post!

Found this post by Niko. Here its typical smelted appearance. No iron here has become fully liquid.

Traditionally its smelted, not melted. Ore gets reduced by CO(g), the rest melts away as slag. Iron gets carburized. Trick is to have a reducing flame by using a oxygen deficiency.

In this case we don't need experimental archaeology. We can turn to the modern Japanese as some people there still build tataras and do traditional bloomery-runs that go on for several days. At the end they tap the slag, smash the furnace and drag out the bloom. Had it melted fully it would come out as a mostly solid sheet-like thing, but it comes out as a fluffy looking porous moon rock thing.

 

pict02.jpg

Edited by Viktor Johansson

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Some of the steel in the tatara, especially by the tuyure probably goes molten simply due to edging near cast iron. It doesnt have to be so liquid that it forms pearls of molten steel, but molten enough to be considered liquidous.

 

My orishigane goes full molten but you couldnt tell the difference between it and bloomery or tamahagane even.

Nice to see you here Tim. I have been posting my crucible steel progress on another forum, i forgot to run it here too. I will make a seperate thread and add to Jan's collosal amount of work. 

 

Mark and I havent posted out smelts much here in thr past few years either.

Edited by Daniel Cauble
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1 hour ago, Joshua States said:

First hand accounts may be difficult to obtain ;-)

Back to process, how does one determine quantities of materials and even a list of materials to combine? Do we think the different historical compositions we're intentional or circumstantial?

Oh yeah, can we get this pinned?

That is something that had me curious as well. How did the ancients know, or did they know, that it was too much or too little carbon that caused this or that effect and that if they did this or that it would increase or decrease the content ?

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55 minutes ago, Joshua States said:

Back to process, how does one determine quantities of materials and even a list of materials to combine? Do we think the different historical compositions we're intentional or circumstantial?

Oh yeah, can we get this pinned?

If I understand you correctly Jan, what you are talking about is basically what is talked about on here as the Georgian Process, which is where the iron gets carburised by the charcoal and then falls down below the flux.  It is a good way of controlling the percentage of carbon in the ingot in a very imprecise manner.

However, once again we need to avoid saying "This is how they did it"  because there is no "They" and there is no single process. We can't generalise about the old methods because there were quite a few.  In that method they used the furnace temperature and the process to control it's own carbon content.  In other methods they were very precise.  Thankfully we have many crucible steel recipes and they all were specific weights and volumes of ingredients. 

Because of this we can see that for the existing recipes, time and effort and tweaking went into them.  These people were not just making one ingot and hoping to get it right, they were making thousands of ingots and at that number it wouldn't take long to get the recipe tweaked for carbon content and to find out what worked well.  We are told in history that the Indians invented the process but that the Persians perfected it and passed the method on to the Arabs.  This is clearly seen by the primitive methods in deep southern India and Sri lanka which are small ingots with a very high failure rate, which were made of very approximate quantities of ingredients and interestingly enough didn't produce a pattern. Then we compare those primitive more purely Indian methods with the more Persian influenced methods of the more northern regions where multiple metals were used, very specific weights were used and the success rate of the ingots was high.  These were the ingots which were associated with the Wootz blades and were traded internationally. So it seems that the Persians perfecting the process was actually correct.

Many of the precise carburising recipes contained carbon donor ingredients which were very high in tannic acid and or gallic acid.  These included pomegranate bark and hulls, oak gall, myrobalan, Cassia auriculata etc. The reason for this is not understood well, but it was clear that these carbon sources were specifically chosen for what they contained and that the ancient steel makers understood that the astringent quality of these ingredients helped the final product.  This tells me that there was a migration of knowledge across Asia, a sharing of what should be used and why.

Some recipes from Persia, where the iron ore sources contain significant sulphur, contain manganese which was added to help cleanse the molten steel from sulphur.  Sulphur in the ingots wasn't desired as it lowered the forging temperature, causing them to be hot short, ie. crumbling at higher forging temperatures.

Other recipes have calcium added in the form of shell, which as well as manganese helped to purify the melt of excess phosphorous which made an ingot cold short, ie. causing cracking when worked at colder temperatures and making the blade brittle in cold weather. We can see over time that the steel makers were learning and perfecting their recipes, seeking new ways to purify the ingots.  There were reasons for everything which was added, some say that some ingredients were symbolic and that may be true, but when I look at the ingredients, the type of ingredients, I see that there is a very specific logic to why things were added and how much was added.  The amounts were usually very precise, down to very small weights and measures.

There was nothing random about the Persian influenced processes and due to the quantities of ingots which were made each year, and the time over which the processes were used, there was ample opportunity for perfecting the processes.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Vern Wimmer said:

There are few things on this subject that anyone can claim to "know all about".

 

This is so true, all we can do is keep learning and try to share the few pieces of the puzzle that we have.  Often our knowledge is based on what other scholars have written and not on first hand accounts.  As Ann Feuerbach says, you have to go back to first hand accounts if you want to be right about things.  Reading what Faraday and the other English researchers from the early days said and taking it as gospel is a mistake which many people fall into.  They misunderstood the processes and what they were actually looking at in many cases.  The first hand accounts of the processes in India are the real gems which can help us to understand what was done, and why. I still have massive holes in my understanding.  Most of my knowledge has been obtained from the last three years of research, not from making numbers of ingots in the preceding 12 years, but from intensive research and talking with as many smiths as I can. I found out what people were doing and why they were getting the patterns they were; adding that to my understanding in metallurgy. Just making ingots by a method or two doesn't give us any much further knowledge.  We have to do research in lots of different areas, read and interpret the first hand accounts in relation to principles of metallurgy and be able to interpret and understand what we are looking at.

The most important thing is for us to openly share what we have found out.  Often what we are looking at is not what we think we are looking at and the reasons things are happening is not as we think. :) We never stop learning...

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There is room at the table for both academic research and applied experience. In many ways they are interdependent. With all due respect to Ann Feuerbach, she never worked in Law Enforcement. It teaches you that eye witnesses and very often participants do not always give accurate descriptions of events. As you point out about British observers.  

To take a page from science and paraphrase a principle, "It don't mean a thing if you can't repeat it". 

That of course requires the attempted application of the scholar's theories just as the person who would replicate needs a starting point from the scholar's notes.

 

 

Edited by Vern Wimmer

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1 hour ago, Vern Wimmer said:

There is room at the table for both academic research and applied experience. In many ways they are interdependent. With all due respect to Ann Feuerbach, she never worked in Law Enforcement. It teaches you that eye witnesses and very often participants do not always give accurate descriptions of events. As you point out about British observers.  

To take a page from science and paraphrase a principle, "It don't mean a thing if you can't repeat it". 

That of course requires the attempted application of the scholar's theories just as the person who would replicate needs a starting point from the scholar's notes.

I couldn't agree more, we have to test out what others are saying, just following the instructions doesn't give you the same result, there is technique involved.  This is the hard part and it is what we are trying to work out ourselves through comparing our experiments with historical blades.  Sometimes history is largely wrong, we just have to use skill in seeing through the parts which are fact and what is perception.  It takes a certain type of person to be able to interpret the information and come up with that obscure truth from many different and seemingly unrelated bits of information.  This is something you would fully understand.

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The problem with quoting Faraday etc is that they were accurate witnesses of the specific pieces of steel that they had in front of them, and in that perspective they were first hand witnesses... however, they were not reliable witnesses concerning their opinions of what the Indians were doing and how they were doing it.  The first hand accounts of naturalists and travellers going through the regions and giving accounts of what was done at a specific location at a specific time is of utmost value.  We do have to be able to see past the filter of the writer though and understand that sometimes the accounts are not saying what we think at first glance.

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Since I cannot claim to have read everything written about the ancients and no where near what has been written by those of today I have a stupid question of "truly epic proportion".

Since it appears that modern experimentors have run into a couple of surprises here and there because of elemental interactions and reactions and so forth, has anyone,

A. Taken an amount of modern iron, closely tested for chemical content, and,

     1) run it through the bloom process of their chosen method and then sent it           out for analysis to get a measure of what is added or subtracted by process

     2) done the same out of the smelt of the method.

Then

     1) taken a quantity of, say something in the 1070-1080 type steel and done.               The same thing.

?????

Obviously I am asking if anyone establishes a "baseline" for their particular method by using a known material to eliminate the variables of the subject and attempt to absolutely identify the effects of the process.

 

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I wouldn't say that we have run into any major surprises.  We have known for over a century about the effects of Sulphur and Phosphorous weakening the ingots, and about carbide forming elements such as manganese, vanadium etc.  creating patterning in the ingots.  We have known about the structures that carbon contributes to in the steel.  This is all old stuff, however what has been poorly understood, and is still poorly understood, is the action of banding, what precisely causes the carbides to line up in the watered patterns.  Verhoeven and Pendray were convinced that it was the presence of vanadium which allowed it but never worked out the mechanism. 

As far as creating a baseline, the question would be what the baseline was for, we know that adding specific elements causes slight changes in the contrast or boldness of the pattern, however what creates the different patterns is more related to the process and not the trace elements.  This is proven by the fact that several different smiths are able to get the same type of patterns without adding anything extra to their steel and the composition of their steel is slightly different.  They just use the same process. 

Composition is generally speaking (there I go generalizing ;) ) not too important as far as the types of patterns which someone can achieve. The same categories of patterns have been obtained from different periods in history where the processes of the ingot production and the recipes were significantly different.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with creating a baseline, I actually think it is a good idea. I wouldn't be surprised if some little changes are yet to surprise us. However testing is expensive and not practical for some smiths who sometimes struggle to buy crucibles... Not sure who may have done testing at different stages of their process.

Edited by Tim Mitchell

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Pinned it is!  Not the first time it's come up, either.  Down in the pinned Bloomers and Buttons, you will find this: 

 

 

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That is a good starter thread Alan, with some fine discussion by some notable Smiths, but it is short and somewhat dated. I'm fairly sure this subject should be revisited every so often (3-5 years?). If for no other reason, just to see what has changed in our collective knowledge base.

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16 hours ago, Tim Mitchell said:

......

 This is proven by the fact that several different smiths are able to get the same type of patterns without adding anything extra to their steel and the composition of their steel is slightly different.  They just use the same processes...........

 

"Adding anything extra to their steel" interesting, in that there is no standard for "their" steel and by its nature steel is iron with something extra added and it is fairly well known that "slight" differences in composition can change the characteristics of a steel quite notably. This also brings in the variables we have today that may have effects on different attempts from iron source, and use of local indigenous materials as clay and wood varieties. In which case the process IS adding to the materials.

Given that "we" can be even more precise with measuring and qualifying most of what we know we are adding have we gotten to the point where there are no more improvements to be made with crucible steel in terms of performance and is the goal, now, more the replication of old patterns for their visual aesthetics ?

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Ok, you are reading a little more into my comment than was intended.  Steel itself is an alloy of iron and carbon, and a high carbon steel is from 1% to 2% carbon.  That being said, the majority of the crucible steel examples out there fall between the 1.4% to 1.8% carbon range.  Changing the carbon content makes harder blades, and it makes more carbon available for carbide patterning, so the higher carbon blades tend to have better patterning, no surprise there.

Most steel contains trace elements as a result of it's production and ore source, but these trace elements are kept to a minimum as we can see from the analysis of the old blades. Some blades had higher manganese or copper or phosphorous etc, but there were not large amounts of alloying elements other than carbon added to the majority of the old blades.  There are a couple of notable exceptions, but that is not what I am talking about.

The different processes do add some to the trace elements, but the amounts of the trace elements haven't given us any major surprises, and the same sort of patterns have been made from steel with more or with less of specific trace elements and from different ingot creation processes.

The goal of most smiths who make crucible steel today is to replicate the old steel to some degree, and to be able to match the performance of the best old blades through proper forging and heat treating technique.  Proper technique ends up making specific patterns and so some patterns make blades with better characteristics than some other blades speaking generally.

If we begin adding large alloying elements to crucible steel, other than carbon, which we have no historical foundation for, then we are venturing out into the field of standard steel production. Alloying began in the west with people trying to replicate crucible steel, and so if the purpose is to replicate what the ancients did, by adding large amounts of alloying elements we are possibly going astray. Not a bad direction, but just not a replication direction.

We are seeking to get both better old patterns and better quality in the steel treatment, but most of the physical characteristics of the steel come from what you do to the ingot after it is made and not so much during production. Everything in the process affects the final outcome, but some things affect the final product, pattern or quality more than others. It is the forging technique that contributes more to the patterning and to the final qualities of the blade than anything else and it is this area of forging where we are trying to focus the most.  Changing forging temperatures and technique and then examining the microstructural changes in the steel as a result. This is where most of the research is at the moment. 

We may find out later that some common trace element or some other addition to the ingot during the melt, such as tannin rich ingredients, contributes some very significant part to the final blade, and we know that little things can make big differences, but as for now there are no big surprises from the analysis of the steel. The current leaps in research are from forging temperature and ranges / technique. 

Edited by Tim Mitchell

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Thanks for pinning this Alan, I remember the old thread, it was good but we have learned quite a bit more since then and this is a little more complete I think.  Coupled with the "Wootz Makers and Methods" thread, we have some good coverage on the subject. Although the makers and methods post could well be updated as it is almost exactly 3 years old :) a lot happens in three years...

 

Edited by Tim Mitchell

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In the descriptions we have seen of the old methods I note something appears to be missing by comparison to the modern methods. I see no discussion of pre-quench heat treating other than forging temperstures but glaringly absent is any discussion of tempering, post hardening. Is this perhaps something where "we" have an advantage in the manipulation og the product. From what I see I get the impression that "they" ended the use of heat with the various quench methods intended to produce thr desired results. 

It would seem to me to be quite a challenge, without metalurgical analysis, to come away with absolutes in terms of the resulting blades if we do not know whether one went through a tempering process and another did not. Are we able to determine, beyond absence of evidence, by non-destructive means any of what we call "tempering" and its effects on those blades ?

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Hi Vern,

I thought I mentioned that briefly.  The methods of quenching and tempering were various, and even without microstructural analysis it is possible to determine if a quench and temper method was a success or not.  The changes were visible in the darkness of the pattern background and in the mechanical characteristics of the test piece much in the same way as today.  Some smiths used an air quench, like Anossoff who used hot air from the furnace opening, or compressed air.  This gives a fine pearlite structure. Others used a light oil quench from critical, which would create a combination of a pearlite blade with a marcasite edge where the blade is thinnest.  It in effect gives a thickness quench. 

There were dung tempers and urine quenches, quenches with all sorts of weird and wonderful recipes some even claimed to make the steel non-magnetic after cooling, or to make a special background colour.

Where there is marcasite on the blade, the pattern is partly obscured, but the best display of a blade pattern and flexibility of the final blade comes from the fine pearlite structure that Anossoff achieved through an air quench. It makes a very black background and it creates a very flexible blade especially if you have a fine grain structure and you have spherodized carbides, through proper forging technique.

It is possible to determine the treatment of old blades by using hardness testing and by visual inspection under a microscope, of the crystal structure of the blade edge.  It's edge holding ability also gives us an idea.

There was no single process, just like everything else and everything contributes to the quality of the final blade.  Finding a really high quality crucible steel blade was not so easy in the mid 1800s, Abbott said he had one exceptional blade which would out perform other blades in combat, but there are accounts of some quite important people in the battles of the day taking the sabers of the English and attaching them to their Talwar handles. It seems that the British blades were better and more consistent than the average wootz blades of India in that time and location.

Edited by Tim Mitchell

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I am guessing, from what's been said, that their final blades are higher in carbon percentage than our "simple"  blade steels (10xx series as an example) today. It seems, to me, that there is a possibility that they never "identified" additional elements such as vanadium but some may have identified the process(es) that introduced it/them and their effects in their results. "We don't know what it is, but, we know what it does."

Given both the high carbon and the many variables would it be safe to say that we really have no analagous steels today and that is a result of the unsuitability of, even the "best" of the "Wootz" steels, in more modern machining and manufacturing processes? 

That would answer my much earlier question about the "chicken and egg" of edged tool development and steel development, at least in our time.

I am willing to, and indeed do, believe that our modern steels are far superior, not being a believer in myth and legend anyway , but one has to wonder "if?".......

 

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32 minutes ago, Vern Wimmer said:

Given both the high carbon and the many variables would it be safe to say that we really have no analagous steels today and that is a result of the unsuitability of, even the "best" of the "Wootz" steels, in more modern machining and manufacturing processes? 

That would answer my much earlier question about the "chicken and egg" of edged tool development and steel development, at least in our time.

I am willing to, and indeed do, believe that our modern steels are far superior, not being a believer in myth and legend anyway , but one has to wonder "if?".......

Absolutely modern steels are mechanically superior to wootz, though not as pretty (if you're into that sort of thing, not everyone is).  One can make an argument that they are good enough for some applications though.  This is why I personally have no real interest in wootz: it is not a very good (mechanically) material.  I would much rather have good materials pattern welded together for the pretty factor.  That being said, pattern welding (especially something like san mai, or just as spine steel) should be doable with wootz for some pretty effects.  The quenching becomes a problem there, so it would have to be with a suitable edge steel (W1/W2, edge heated/quenched in oil... maybe?).  It was (arguably, depending on time and location) the best material available back in the day, but not today.  It was often not the best material back in the day too; but like today hype could have gone a long way in keeping it in use/demand.  

I do like reading these threads for the historical reproduction/understanding factor.  You guys making all this stuff and studying the history and how to reproduce it are doing a fantastic job.  Keep up the good work!  

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The modern carbon steel blades usually sit around the 0.8% to 1% carbon mark.  Wootz is a high carbon steel and is similar to some tool steels sitting between 1% and 1.8% usually, there are exceptions but most were in this range.  It makes very good tools, punches and dies and even chisels.  The best of the wootz steels compare with a good high carbon tool steel such as perhaps W1 / W2 (0.7% - 1.5%C) or similar.  They can take and hold a good edge, are tough when heat treated properly.  The higher carbon range blades can also be close to that kind of steel if you heat treat it properly and you have the carbon segregated as an ideal spherodized carbide grouping.  This means the matrix around the spherodized carbides is below 1% carbon and it makes a really good combination of hardness and flexibility, it is definitely unique and beautiful. 

You may be right about them not being able to identify specifically things like phosphorous, but they did know about various specific elements in their steel. But more specifically they knew the effects of adding some elements such as carbon, calcium, manganese, copper and chromium to their blades to deal with some of the weaknesses of their steel which were caused by Phosphorous or Sulphur.  That is something that we know for sure from Archaeology and from historical accounts. So specific knowledge did exist, their explanations would be different than ours would be today, but they knew what they were doing and additions were very deliberate with a knowledge of the final result they wanted to achieve. 

The Hyderabad / Trichinopoly / Deccani process was one which as far as I know added nothing except two different types of iron. The Salem process also added nothing.  This steel only contained elements which were from their respective ores and processes.  This tells me that they had great confidence in the purity of their ore and product.. or just didn't care less :unsure:.  Adding ingredients added expense and usually would have been done to remove impurities.  The goal usually was to make the steel as pure as possible, but there were occasions where some elements were added through deliberate alloying of other metals to achieve a specific material.  They were much smarter than many today give them credit for. The Babylonians which the Persians come from were some of the oldest scientists on the planet. They taught the Egyptians who taught the Greeks who form the basis of our scientific understanding.  We shouldn't think of them as primitive by any sense. Without their science we wouldn't have our modern steels today.

I wouldn't say that wootz blades are made obsolete by the modern steels, but there are so many modern alloys which have similar or better characteristics that it is not cost effective or practical to use them for general tools that would suit Wootz. Considering Wootz sells for at least 1 euro per gram these days that is. I have a Wootz chisel which I made for doing some hardwood dovetailing on a jewelry box... I am a wood worker too :).  It performed comparably to any of my old high carbon chisels or my new Sandvik chisels.  Perhaps even a little bit better at holding an edge.  I was very impressed and if I had given a little more attention to quenching and tempering it would most certainly been better than my modern chisels.  How I forge a blade of Wootz makes a big difference in the final edge stability and hardness.  I have had blades with edges which were prone to chipping, and others which were really tough.  It depended on the forging and the heat treating.

Edited by Tim Mitchell

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