Zeb Camper Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 I will be giving a fellow co-worker("young Cambridge" is what I call him) a free intro. to bladesmithing class (all I'm qualified for I'd say ) maybe this weekend, or after Christmas. Now, young Cambridge is a beginner at pretty much all trades of any kind. That said, I told him we would make a simple 4" bladed drop point knife possibly with a hamon. I plan on making one right along with him so that he can follow in my footsteps. I think the class will mostly be about hammer contol, technique, and I'll really stress heat treatment. I think I'll make him look for decalesense and quench on scrap steel until Im satisfied with his form and results. He's like 6'8" tall, so I told him bring his anvil, or at least the log as mine is already too short for me. I guess my biggest concerns are: Should it be a full tang instead? Is this knife too complex? Is the hamon a bad idea? Can a beginner under another novice get this roughed out in a day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vern Wimmer Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 Only you know what you can do in a day but, based on a couple of people I've "coached" I'd say it is pretty "doable" as far as roughing it out. Some times you don't realize how much you actually do and, as importantly, how much time you spend waiting for steel to heat up or cool down. Having a "student" there forces you to plan ahead more. If you jump to the handle/guard too fast you have nothing to do during heat treat. At least that is what I found out If you have a forge, anvil, hammer, belt grinder and files plus misc you should have that ready for HT in a day . HT, finish, handle day two. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Simon Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 In a day. Doubtful. Just to forge, grind and heat treat will probably take full day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Stephens Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 I think it's easy to underestimate how overwhelmed a newcomer to the craft can be. Whole new realms of knowledge get dropped on them: The geometry of primary and secondary bevels, the crazy chemistry of heat treating, the dangers of the equipment, hammer control, etc. etc. etc. If it was up to me, I'd keep the knife as simple as possible. In fact, when I've introduced someone to the craft, I don't even have them forge first. I have them do a full stock-removal project, full tang, no bolster. Every knife becomes a stock removal blade eventually. Eliminate as many variables as possible for the first, then slowly add them, depending on the student. Just my two cents. Dave 4 -----------------------------------------------"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly." -- Theodore Roosevelthttp://stephensforge.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeb Camper Posted December 16, 2017 Author Share Posted December 16, 2017 I got a lot to think about then. Do you guys think It would be smart to just show him simple stuff like heat treatment, and point him in the direction of a file jig and a decent forge? He has no tools at the moment accept for an anvil. He's pretty broke too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Stephens Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 A copy of the $50 Knife Shop would be a good investment for him if he's broke and wants to get into the craft. David Boye's book "Step-by-Step Knifemaking" is also a really good investment for the broke bladesmith. Teach him how to draw file. Probably the biggest money saving skill a guy can have. But yeah, you'd do him a big favor if you showed him basic heat treating on simple steels and then advised him to buy real steel like 1080 or similar rather than making a knife from scrap. Good steel is cheap and starting with a known steel eliminates so many variable for the beginner. Above all else, advise patience. Beginners want to rush to the end so they can see the glory of the finished project. Injuries and disappointment lie down that path. You may want to have him watch Don Fogg's Arctic Fire 2012 video on hand finishing. Not so much for the technique (but that's good too), but for the philosophy Don explains during the tutorial. Luck! Dave 2 -----------------------------------------------"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly." -- Theodore Roosevelthttp://stephensforge.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeb Camper Posted December 16, 2017 Author Share Posted December 16, 2017 Thanks Dave (and everyone else)! I'll relay your advice to him. You know, I would imagine he should start out like Joël Mercier did with his file jig, then slowly work into the forging game. I can help him later on once he establishes a foothold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake cleland Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 for a knife like that, I'd allow three days. Day 1, orientation and basics, forge, rough grind and heat treat. Day 2, finish grind, rough fit handle, polish and etch blade. Day 3 shape and finish handle, any decorative work, and sheath. When I do a 1 day introduction, I have them make a simple brute de forge full tang. I use 1/8th" x 1" x 6" 1095, which prevents them biting off more than they can chew (and avoids the beginners pry bar effect), while still allowing a lot of leeway in terms of design. Generally I'll grind and heat treat, while explaining the processes, while having them observe closely, and maybe doing some of the rough grinding - generally beginners wear themselves out during the forging, and get frustrated with coming to grips with grinding. While the blade is tempering. we'll have a beer and I'll explain all the additional steps they'd need to do to make a 'proper' knife, and I'll send them home with their knife and some leather to wrap the handle. This approach lets them find out whether they've got the bug, if they have any natural aptitude etc, and ensures that at the end of the day they have something tangible to take home with them... 1 Jake Cleland - Skye Knives www.knifemaker.co.uk "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeb Camper Posted December 16, 2017 Author Share Posted December 16, 2017 That also sounds very wise, thanks for the advice Jake. I suppose we cold try that. I think I could just barely get the knife I drew roughed out in a day, but not mine and his. I definitely don't want it to be a three day class! If I did as you suggest and sent him home with his knife and some leather or some wood and pins, and then gave him Dave's advice on top of that he'd sort of see if he's "got the bug" and he'll also know where to go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joël Mercier Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 45 minutes ago, Zeb Camper said: Thanks Dave (and everyone else)! I'll relay your advice to him. You know, I would imagine he should start out like Joël Mercier did with his file jig, then slowly work into the forging game. I can help him later on once he establishes a foothold. Let him walk my path so he can become a master of finitiob like I! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeb Camper Posted December 16, 2017 Author Share Posted December 16, 2017 35 minutes ago, Joël Mercier said: Let him walk my path so he can become a master of finitiob like I! I believe only a true master such as yourself would be fit to teach such a skill. I am but a humble guide for his long journey on the path to true mastery of finitiob. He might have to complete several burdons to appease the blade gods, fast for a while, or trip on peyote in the desert with the Navajo in hopes of a vision of true finitiob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vern Wimmer Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 I have to agree with Dave that a full tang, no guard etc would be optimal if you are comfortable teaching that way because you are used to doing it. It is always a balancing act when teaching anything but particularly for a craft. For me it is a trade off to do a stock removal FT, no guard, and make it look and work good I have to actually plan more than forging out a stick or stub hidden. It almost requires a pattern and then I slip into an almost OCD mode about trying for perfection in replicating the design. I'm a little goofy about the pin placement and shaping the the ricasso end. With a stick there is squaring up for the guard but the actual handle is more freeform. That's just my weirdness coming through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeb Camper Posted December 16, 2017 Author Share Posted December 16, 2017 11 minutes ago, Vern Wimmer said: I have to agree with Dave that a full tang, no guard etc would be optimal if you are comfortable teaching that way because you are used to doing it. It is always a balancing act when teaching anything but particularly for a craft. For me it is a trade off to do a stock removal FT, no guard, and make it look and work good I have to actually plan more than forging out a stick or stub hidden. It almost requires a pattern and then I slip into an almost OCD mode about trying for perfection in replicating the design. I'm a little goofy about the pin placement and shaping the the ricasso end. With a stick there is squaring up for the guard but the actual handle is more freeform. That's just my weirdness coming through. I agree 100% it is hard to get a very complex full tang handle forged without careful planning. I prefer forging stick, and other hidden tangs for that reason. Plus, you can add cool stuff to stick tangs like buttcaps, and guards. I think if we forge a blade, we'll go for a glorified broomstick shape that widens towards the butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vern Wimmer Posted December 16, 2017 Share Posted December 16, 2017 One day I'll have to tell you about the improvised DIY finitiob machine I made. It works great for a free-form style of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles dP Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 On 16/12/2017 at 1:59 AM, Dave Stephens said: You may want to have him watch Don Fogg's Arctic Fire 2013 video on hand finishing Dave, do you have a link for this please? I’ve found 2012 on ustream and some on YouTube but, what with the band of the same name, I am struggling to find this one. Thanks. "The way we win matters" (Ender Wiggins) Orson Scott Card Nos qui libertate donati nescimus quid constat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua States Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) On 12/15/2017 at 6:45 PM, Dave Stephens said: If it was up to me, I'd keep the knife as simple as possible. In fact, when I've introduced someone to the craft, I don't even have them forge first. I have them do a full stock-removal project, full tang, no bolster. Every knife becomes a stock removal blade eventually. I second this idea as it was the way I was introduced to the craft. The first knife I made in that lesson was a dropped point hunter, stub tang, with a simple guard and spacer. The lesson was in three sessions, each about 3-4 hours long. I think we should all learn to grind before we learn to forge blades. Grinding first gives you a perspective on how to shape and forge that you just do not have starting from scratch. Session 1: Cut out, profile and rough grind. Harden and put in the tempering oven. Go home and come back tomorrow. Session 2: Finish grinding, guard & spacer fitting, hand sanding the front face of the guard, drill the handle material for the tang pocket. Go home with some sandpaper and finish the hand sanding on the blade. Session 3: Fit everything up and glue with 1-hour epoxy. Sit down and discuss the past two days of lessons and review notes while the epoxy set up. General Q&A time. Then I finished grinding that handle and sharpen the blade. I still have that knife and it goes with me every time I hit the field, either for a hunt or a general day out and about in the woods. 11 years later, it still is my favorite field blade. Edited December 17, 2017 by Joshua States “So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.” The only bad experience is the one from which you learn nothing. Josh http://www.dosgatosdesignsllc.com/#! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdJMFMqnbLYqv965xd64vYg J.States Bladesmith | Facebook https://www.facebook.com/dos.gatos.71 https://www.etsy.com/shop/JStatesBladesmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua States Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 (edited) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWaRKxGsyHQ&t=4949s or for 2012 vids: http://www.arcticfire.org/videos.html Edited December 18, 2017 by Joshua States 1 “So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.” The only bad experience is the one from which you learn nothing. Josh http://www.dosgatosdesignsllc.com/#! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdJMFMqnbLYqv965xd64vYg J.States Bladesmith | Facebook https://www.facebook.com/dos.gatos.71 https://www.etsy.com/shop/JStatesBladesmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles dP Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Thank you Joshua "The way we win matters" (Ender Wiggins) Orson Scott Card Nos qui libertate donati nescimus quid constat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Stephens Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 That link to movienightseries.com is a fake link that hijacking the AF 2013 brand. We didn't authorize them to use our work. ANd if you click on the trailer or movie it shows you something else. It tries to get you to buy a membership to view the whole thing. We don't do that. You can see it free on Youtube. 1 -----------------------------------------------"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly." -- Theodore Roosevelthttp://stephensforge.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua States Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 (edited) My apologies Dave. I just did a Google search and that popped up. Thanks for the clarification. I have modified my post. Edited December 18, 2017 by Joshua States “So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.” The only bad experience is the one from which you learn nothing. Josh http://www.dosgatosdesignsllc.com/#! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdJMFMqnbLYqv965xd64vYg J.States Bladesmith | Facebook https://www.facebook.com/dos.gatos.71 https://www.etsy.com/shop/JStatesBladesmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeb Camper Posted December 18, 2017 Author Share Posted December 18, 2017 (edited) Thanks for all the info. guys. Much appreciated. I bought him Wayne Goddard's book, but the second one entitled "The Wonders of Knifemaking" or, something like that. From what I read in the reviews of $50 knife shop, it is more about tooling and just sort of breezes past any real techniques, or instructions as far as how-to. The second book is actually about making knives. I will show him a very simple charcoal forge of mine, how to use a muffle pipe, along with info. about file jigs, I'll teach him to heat treat simple carbon steel and I'll send him on his way. I'll give him the link for the arctic fire video to watch on his own time. If he wants to make knives, he will. By the way, how are the stock removal guys shaping blades? Angle grinders and bandsaws I suppose? Hopefully not hacksaws! I can't think of an economic route for him to go as far as shaping the profile. Edited December 18, 2017 by Zeb Camper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vern Wimmer Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Good old stone wheel bench grinders are not that expensive, especially if you find them used. If cutting down from a leaf spring an angle grinder is the cheap ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeb Camper Posted December 18, 2017 Author Share Posted December 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Vern Wimmer said: Good old stone wheel bench grinders are not that expensive, especially if you find them used. If cutting down from a leaf spring an angle grinder is the cheap ticket. Yeah, might be a decent option, but he's been pretty skiddish around angle grinders since "the incident". For good reason too He just needs more experience at everything. He should be fine... I don't think he'll kill himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua States Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 3 hours ago, Zeb Camper said: By the way, how are the stock removal guys shaping blades? The ones who do it all the time use bandsaws and 2x72 belt grinders. A portable bandsaw works fine, especially if you rig up a stand for it and turn it upside down. Then the stone wheel bench grinder or files to finish the profile. “So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.” The only bad experience is the one from which you learn nothing. Josh http://www.dosgatosdesignsllc.com/#! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdJMFMqnbLYqv965xd64vYg J.States Bladesmith | Facebook https://www.facebook.com/dos.gatos.71 https://www.etsy.com/shop/JStatesBladesmith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles dP Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 9 hours ago, Dave Stephens said: You can see it free on Youtube Thanks Dave "The way we win matters" (Ender Wiggins) Orson Scott Card Nos qui libertate donati nescimus quid constat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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