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blackdragonforge

iron nickle meteorite

40 posts in this topic

haveing tried to forge a iron nickle meteorite the normal thing happened..it became redshort..(crumbled).. :banghead: .i hears that i needed to forge it between two pieaces of steel...

 

i was wonder ing if tai could explain in simple step how to do it as i know he has or anyone else that has??

 

this is one of 4 things i wish to master before i croak.

 

thank you

michele(chele

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It's all different. Do you know the nickel content? If it's over 4-5 percent you'll have a hard time. I've folded it in on itself for pure meteoritic iron blades and welded it in with different steels. Either way it takes some folding.

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I recently forged one and it has alot of natural inclusions. I couldn't get the inclusions to weld together with flux, higher temps, cussing and whatnot. No crumbling problems. Mine is from Russia. I didn't try folding it. It does seem to react well to carburization though.

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For those who want to forge or HT it remember that the nice Widmanstatten pattern you see :unsure: when etched will disappear !!

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I took a meteorite once and sliced it on my band saw about 1/8'' slices and layered it with 1/4'' 1084 to 10 layers, welded up nice, forged it out long, cut into 5 or 6 pieces, stacked and welded again, then once more, finished up with around 300 layers of good lookin damascus. I could see the inclusions in the slices but they were no trouble and didn't show in the finished billet.

 

Don H.

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For those who want to forge or HT it remember that the nice Widmanstatten pattern you see  :unsure: when etched will disappear  !!

31576[/snapback]

 

?? :huh: ive seen a few knives that had that metrorite sheian (look)in them..please tell me more

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It's all different. Do you know the nickel content? If it's over 4-5 percent you'll have a hard time. I've folded it in on itself for pure meteoritic iron blades and welded it in with different steels. Either way it takes some folding.

31534[/snapback]

 

tai..i have no idea or how could one judge that? i bought a bunch years ago at the del mar fair and been sitting on it in the hope someday of forgeing it

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I took a meteorite once and sliced it on my band saw about 1/8'' slices and layered it with 1/4'' 1084 to 10 layers, welded up nice, forged it out long, cut into 5 or 6 pieces, stacked and welded again, then once more, finished up with around 300 layers of good lookin damascus. I could see the inclusions in the slices but they were no trouble and didn't show in the finished billet.

 

Don H.

31582[/snapback]

 

don kool....you forged welded it and it did not get red short ?..

 

i like very much what ive seen of your knives! :ylsuper:

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The characteristic Widmanstatten pattern of meteorites is due to crystal formation and precipitation along preferential crystal planes .This creates that criss cross pattern.This takes place as the metal slowly cools from high temperature . Once heat treated it's gone . I wouldn't know how to reproduce it with a meteorite though I have made it while carburizing iron [by accident !]

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The characteristic Widmanstatten pattern of meteorites is due to crystal formation and precipitation along preferential crystal planes .This creates that criss cross pattern.This takes place as the metal slowly cools from high temperature . Once heat treated it's gone . I wouldn't know how to reproduce it with a meteorite though I have made it while carburizing iron [by accident !]

31673[/snapback]

The true Windmastatten pattern took more than a human life to form and as yet has not been reproduced on Earth.

I always melt the space rocks in a crucible and them mix in other material (iron,carbon etc) and then forge as per normal with the ingot.

Ric Furrer

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The true Widmanstatten pattern of the meteorite can be maintained by making the blade entirely through stock reduction. The true Widmanstatten pattern is lost through forging or melting. However, historically and traditionally speaking, making a blade from or with an iron meteorite is NOT ABOUT the Widmanstatten pattern!

 

It is about the symbolism, history and mythology surrounding the use of a specific traditional blade material ,... namely meteoritic iron. Second to this it is about the alloy content of the iron.

Edited by Tai

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Meteoritic iron was the first ferrous blade material used by our ancient ancestors.

31702[/snapback]

Tai: You might have some difficulty defending that statement. The accidental smelting of an "iron ore" "rock" in a fire pit seems equally possible as the source of the first iron material to be worked by humans.

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I'd also like to know who was first . I made my comment since there are those who have made guards or bolsters of meteorite because of the pattern and were surprized when the pattern disappeared after HT. Just a warning. Some of these meteorites have 20% nickel somewhat like the modern maraging steels.

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Lots of personal opinion in this post... so take it for what it is, my opinion :)

 

I do not care much if there first has been some accidental smelts or the use of meteoric stuff as ferrous blade material... basically I believe that it would give anyone a hard time to prove either thing. Lot's of old pieces have been "lost", destructed, not found, whatever... so maybe today it will look like this, but tomorrow another theory will be "true".

 

The use of meteoric iron for blades and other stuff...

the Wiedmannstätten-Pattern... is for me not important.

actually I quite would mind a blade which still shows this pattern, WHY??

Simply, no heat treating work has been done on that piece, and it could only serve as a piece of art and not as a functional tool.

For me, whilst blades do have a lot of aesthetic purpose, they need to be practical as well.

 

Besides, from a philosophical point of view, I believe that everything transforms, nothing stays the same... sometimes this happens so subtle or slow that no one will notice, other times well you hardly have a chance to realize how fast something has changed.

the moment we take a piece of material, be the a car-part or other steel-bar and start working on it, we change it, change it's whole purpose.

So why should it be different for a piece of meteoric iron?

 

The use of meteoric iron, if at all, has for me only a symbolic, mythological, and historical meaning.... it is not superior as blade material, it is not more beautiful than other folded stuff,... but it is special none the less.

 

 

Daniel

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as far as my knowledge goes: no...

it takes conditions not found on earth and a long, long time to form that specific pattern...

maybe, in a highly sophisticated lab, it could be possible, but don't as me how :)

 

I could be wrong...

 

Daniel

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Theoretically it should be possible. They can tell how long it took to cool off a meteorite by measuring the thickness of the Widmanstatten layer . Long times and high temperatures are needed but what they are I don't know. :(

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Tai:  You might have some difficulty defending that statement.  The accidental smelting of an "iron ore" "rock" in a fire pit seems equally possible as the source of the first iron material to be worked by humans.

31704[/snapback]

 

You misunderstand. Iron meteorites along with only a few other metals could be found in pure enough form on the earths surface to be worked directly. In other words during Neolithic times a fragment was normally chipped off a larger stone and worked into a blade shape by rubbing it on or with another stone,... primitive stock reduction. Forging and melting came much later.

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I'd also like to know who was first . I made my comment since there are those who have made guards or bolsters of meteorite because of the pattern and were surprized when the pattern disappeared after HT. Just a warning. Some of these meteorites have 20% nickel somewhat like the modern maraging steels.

31707[/snapback]

 

 

 

If you mean heat treat by HT, you lost me. Meteoritic iron is not heat treatable. It will not harden when quenched,... no carbon to speak of.

 

Also the widmanstatten pattern does not disappear completely by thermal cycling from above critical or with minimal hot forging. It becomes "distorted", but not homogenous. The more forging the more distorted it becomes. This is all totally observable.

Edited by Tai

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Is it possible to reproduce the Widmanstatten pattern?

31752[/snapback]

 

It's not about the Widmanstatten pattern.

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no carbon... but it can be carburized or forge folded with a high carbon steel :)

but as mentioned that would result in pattern loss .... but I don't care :rolleyes:

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Right! It's not about the Widmanstatten pattern. If you pattern weld it with steel you wind up with steel and a hardenable blade. If you melt it and add carbon you get steel. If you fold it over and over on itself you get maleable iron, but you lose the "true" Widmanstatten.

 

It's not about the Widmanstatten pattern and it never has been.

Edited by Tai

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Historically, traditionally and culturally,...

...Meteoritic iron is considered "Heavenly iron".

Only God can make a true iron meteorite.

 

That's the bottom line!

That's what it's all about!

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The significance of Widmanstatten pattern has more to do with the identification of iron meteorites, not the bladesmithing tradition.

 

The Widmanstatten pattern is not the only interesting and unique thing about the material. There are also the high nickel alloy content, traces of iridium and some very interesting inclusions, including some in the form of microscopic black diamonds! They say that these tiny diamonds were created during the "big bang" and are the oldest substance on the planet. Of course melting the meteoritic iron would cause the diamonds to float out.

 

Mete's right though, if you want to show the true Widmanstatten pattern and some of the interesting natural inclusions, then don't heat it and or beat it. Even though the character of the material won't be completely lost, it will be distorted to the point that you probably couldn't sell it as a Widmanstatten pattern. To show the natural Widmanstatten pattern you need to handle it more like lapidary work than smithing. Keep in mind, in it's natural state meteoritic iron tends to be both soft and brittle.

 

The best ones for forging have lower nickel content around 4-5 percent. I've used many from Canyon Diablo AZ and Odessa TX with great results. The only way I know to determine the nickel content is to buy them from a reliable dealer, who knows where they came from and what the composition is.

Edited by Tai

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