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I'm fired up! (forge build w/ pics)


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First off, THANKS to all you for the guidance and patience with my n00b questions over the last 3 months. It finally came together, and I wanted to share:

Day one. Ordered anvil and prepped the cylinder. 

prep.jpg

 

Added the Kaowoll and started coating the inside. (Thank to Wayne for providing the wool & cement)

cement.jpg

 

Still no anvil...but that's ok. Don't have a stand yet.

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Simple... yet effective!  (now...where's that anvil!?)

stand.jpg

Staying with 'simple'... here's my burner

burner.jpg

added the .023 mig tips as nozzles

tips.jpg

 

Rear Port added.

port.jpg

 

FINALLY! after 3 months on backorder LOOK what shows up!

finally.jpg

The perfect union! Anvil & Stand

anvil.jpg

 

I got so lucky ... I remember this old merchandise unit that I had at the store

forge1.jpg

VOILA! All painted up, put together, and IR coating added. Looks like retail if you ask me!

forge2.jpg

 

 

Edited by GPrimmer
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2 hours ago, AndyB said:

You should hitch on a pressure gauge to your set up somewhere.  

Knowing your pressure isn't really all that important.  You just need to adjust it until it is burning right.  

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I built my first burner the relative the same way you have, and yes I got sputtering too.  A longer tube may help with the sputtering.  Is it sputtering and blowing out? or just generally sputtering and running?  

When I built my burners like this, you have your mig tips way down in the reducer.  Their restricting air flow, and reducing your venturie effect.  Don't worry the burners will still work, But your already fighting yourself for air.  To maximize your venturie, the delivery orifice should only be like 1/8 or a 1/16 of in inch in the large side of the reducer. 

If your not drawing enough air, then you have to compensate for the volume you may need by putting a longer burner tube on.  So that's where I would start, put longer burner tubes on and see how it runs.  Your burner tube should be 9 times the internal diameter of the tube.  If its the same thing with longer tubes, then its the size of your orifice jump up to larger mig tips.

 

I may be talking out of my butt, but my experience with venturies are that you have to find out which is out of balance the volume of gas or the volume of air, 90% of the time it's not enough air due to the nature of propane.  For every volume of propane, you need 4 times the air volume for the propane to sustain a flame. 

There's no need to redesign your burners, get it work, see how it runs before you do that.  I would highly suggest to look up Ron Reils page and look up the EZ burner design.  It's fast to put together, easy to adjust and you can make it with everything you have there if you need to. 

 

I am really excited to hear how that anvil works for you! It's lovely.

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Daniel, THANKS SO MUCH! 

I was having a hard time focusing on work today wondering where to start, and I was going to start with the easiest thing first... lengthening the tubes from 6" to 8". So thanks! I've really poured over the Reils design because I think that's what I was making by copying that youtube video. If that doesn't work I'll try to find bigger mig tips. The ones I'm using were all I could find, but they're maybe a tad small at 0.023"

The anvil has a really long, clear ring when struck... and I have to admit, it's much louder than I had anticipated. I may need to find some way of deadening the sound, but until the neighbours complain... I'll enjoy the sound of my new hobby!  

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Tweco tapered tips with an 0.035" orifice are considered the standard for venturi burners.

As fr the ringing anvil, you may get a little tired of that after a few days.  Personally I don't like magnets on the anvil.  They aren't that great at damping the vibration and they end up covered in a thick coat of scale.  For major ring reduction, bolt it down tight.  For total ring elimination, set it in pure silicone caulk.  Lay a solid bed around 1/2" thick and let it cure for half an hour or so until it's almost set but still a little tacky.  Set the anvil on the stump.  Let it cure fully, 24-48 hours.  That alone will hold the anvil and kill the ring, but for best results bolt it down after the silicone is fully cured.  Zero ring, zero movement.

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1 hour ago, Alan Longmire said:

Tweco tapered tips with an 0.035" orifice are considered the standard for venturi burners.

As fr the ringing anvil, you may get a little tired of that after a few days.  Personally I don't like magnets on the anvil.  They aren't that great at damping the vibration and they end up covered in a thick coat of scale.  For major ring reduction, bolt it down tight.  For total ring elimination, set it in pure silicone caulk.  Lay a solid bed around 1/2" thick and let it cure for half an hour or so until it's almost set but still a little tacky.  Set the anvil on the stump.  Let it cure fully, 24-48 hours.  That alone will hold the anvil and kill the ring, but for best results bolt it down after the silicone is fully cured.  Zero ring, zero movement.

Thanks Alan, as silicone stays elastic, does this affect rebound at all? I'm apprehensive because if make changes to the anvil to remove the ring, you're obviously affecting the physics of the anvil. This is something I'll definitely want to try though.

I'll get some .035 tips too.  thx

Edited by GPrimmer
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Thus the bolt-down.  Compressed silicone is solid, and still prevents the free vibrations that cause the ringing.  Anvils are just giant tuning forks, after all.  As long as it's bolted down tight (I used 6" x 1/2" lag screws running through angled cleats resting on the stump and anvil base at a 45-degree angle running underneath the anvil.  Imagine just laying a 3" length of 1/2 x 1 flat bar so it's leaning on the anvil base.  Four of these, two under the horn and two under the heel, drilled and bolted in place) it will not affect the rebound or other anvil physics one bit, except to make it work better.  An ideal anvil is one solidly mounted to bedrock so it cannot move at all.  That way the rebound has no choice but to stay in the work.  It doesn't dissipate energy by ringing, it doesn't bounce, it doesn't vibrate except for the one rebound.  Of course, most of us don't have the option of setting our anvil in lead on a bedrock pillar, so we use a solidly built stand on the ground or floor with everything secured so it can't move.  The not-moving thing is for safety and convenience because a.) you really don't want an anvil falling on your foot, even with steel toes and metatarsal guards you're gonna feel it, and b.) it is unergonomic and causes poor hammer control if you have to keep chasing the anvil around all over the shop.  Don't laugh, I've seen it!

Don't overthink it, though.  With a hand hammer you're getting all the efficiency you can out of an anvil that size as long as it isn't hanging free by a rope.  Mine is a 100Kg bolted down, and the one in my guild's shop is a 175 lb (only ten pounds heavier than yours) sitting loose on the stump.  Well, it does have a thin rubber mat and a spike that fits in the handling hole in the bottom so it doesn't fall off, but it is not bolted down so the demonstrator can rotate it however he or she pleases.  I can't tell a difference in efficiency between the two.  The demo shop anvil actually has a harder face than mine, so it's possibly a little more efficient since hardness equals greater rebound.

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It looks like you might tip isn't pointing straight down the burner tubes. If it's off center a little bit it won't run right. If it's really off center it won't run at all. This is why I think its easier to build a blown burner. Having a mill makes a world of difference for making venturi burners.

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2 hours ago, Jeremy Blohm said:

It looks like you might tip isn't pointing straight down the burner tubes. If it's off center a little bit it won't run right. If it's really off center it won't run at all. This is why I think its easier to build a blown burner. Having a mill makes a world of difference for making venturi burners.

I just had a third look at that actually.  I think his camera angle might be throwing it off a bit, but even then I'm thinking you may be right.  But then again there is the camera angle that he took the picture with.

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New anvils I've heard are nutritious ringers, not knowing the method their built something about tool steel casing and blah blah blah - whatever - all of what Alan said, that guy never points us wrong!   If you do all what Alan said and it still makes noise, I slip a heavy chain over the horn of my big Hay when I'm not using it, its quite as a puppy.   A guy at my local craft school wondered what the heck I was doing with a chain hanging off the horn of my anvil while working, once I slipped it off I about split his ears.  Its just nice to dull down the ring as much as you can, but from time to time listen to that baby chime! My Hay-Budden is 200lbs and before I secured it down it sounding like it could break the windows.

 

Ron's page is an absolute goldmine of good information, it gets a little hard to follow sometimes.  A lot of what you may not see on youtube videos of builds is, how much pressure their running at, or just the fact that they have their burners working.  Working well is a different story.  I built 3 burners until I got this one to work like it does, it can be a frustrating pain and make you want to loose your mind.  If anything to keep in mind, you can over build for drawing in air.  I'm running a 12" burner tube at a 3/4 black pipe in my burner right now.  Other than it scaling the living crap out of everything, its getting hot fast. Making a longer tube just means you're trying to draw in air faster . . . I think . . . length of tube = more velocity at the flair end . . . . Because you built choke plates into the burners, you can always throttle down how much air is being drawn into the system.

Don't worry too much about your delivery orifice not being perfectly centered. Center-ish will do, I've seen both work, you just don't want it pointed at the wall of the burner tube.  Other things you can do to help improve it, remove the threads from the large end of the reducer.  Bevel the inner wall where the burner tube meets up to the reducer, this will make a funnel, you want a funnel.  Remove the treads from the flair end.  Your flair end will not last long if it is just black pipe, but you may find that just putting the burner tube in the port can work just the same.  Pulling the tubes in and out can adjust the flame just as if there was a flair on it.  It's just not a prefect flair.   

Another slight improvement that you could make is in your gas supply line if you choose to.  Eliminate that 90degree elbow. Its ideal to come off with the straightest shot you can, as every bend causes a little loss of pressure.  But that's being really really picky. 

 

 

That's a lot of info right there - the important thing is to first get your burners to run with the longer tubes.  Once they run and you work with them a bit, then work on some improvements.

Edited by Daniel W
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So it seems that the suggestion to use 8" nipples rather than 6" was perfect! I have no sputtering now. 

THe next question I have is:  is it normal for the flares at the end to become orange with the heat? 

the wall where the torch flames hit turns orange within 5 minutes, but is it ok if the floor and far wall don't turn orange after, say, 15 minutes? (I'm not sure how to know if the forge is efficient) 

 

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I may be nuts but it seems to me that the nipples are a bit high in the burner tubes. That is a bit too far from the business end. 

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6 hours ago, Vern Wimmer said:

I may be nuts but it seems to me that the nipples are a bit high in the burner tubes. That is a bit too far from the business end. 

Vern, I don't understand what you mean? High in the burner tubes? they are clamped so that the flares are flush with the refractory wall... 

 

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15 hours ago, GPrimmer said:

So it seems that the suggestion to use 8" nipples rather than 6" was perfect! I have no sputtering now. 

THe next question I have is:  is it normal for the flares at the end to become orange with the heat? 

the wall where the torch flames hit turns orange within 5 minutes, but is it ok if the floor and far wall don't turn orange after, say, 15 minutes? (I'm not sure how to know if the forge is efficient) 

 

Those aren't really flares as such, they're just reducers put on backwards.  Actual flares are a 12:1 taper and sit flush with the interior wall.  Being in a forge and not open air, you can get away without them entirely by sculpting the flares in the refractory cement.  Doing that will solve both problems; no metal flare needed, and no getting the ends of the burner tubes up to orange heat in 15 minutes. 

The entire interior of the forge should glow after 15 minutes, the far wall where the flame hits should turn orange almost instantly.  Are you running enough pressure?

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I was referring to the mig tips and I guess I shouldn't watch some kinds of movies and text at the same time.

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Just now, Vern Wimmer said:

I was referring to the mig tips and I guess I shouldn't watch some kinds of movies and text at the same time.

Eewww....:lol:

I think the picture you are referring to is the bell reducers and MIG tips with the burner tubes taken off. Speaking of taking things off...

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33 minutes ago, Alan Longmire said:

The entire interior of the forge should glow after 15 minutes, the far wall where the flame hits should turn orange almost instantly.  Are you running enough pressure?

I ran it for 15 minutes just now, and the wall where the flame hits is orange, but the rest of the forge is not getting orange.  Sputtering has been fixed though.  I am running propane through a 30psi regulator which was set to 15psi... but my ball valve at the burner is only cocked open about halfway.  I didn't think I noticed a difference opening it more than that but what do I know?  Also... I haven't swapped the mig tips out yet (still using .023").

Thoughts?

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55 minutes ago, Alan Longmire said:

Eewww....:lol:

I think the picture you are referring to is the bell reducers and MIG tips with the burner tubes taken off. Speaking of taking things off...

Yah, I was thinking that if the tips were further down the burner tube then the ignition point would be lower increasing the vacuum draw thereby increasing air velocity and pushing the flame into the forge more effectively. It's something I've wanted to build a test burner to experiment with. 

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