Your opinion on this alloy

[Bennett]

I have been looking at this alloy, off and on, for a while now. Mainly for swords. I was wondering if anyone here is familiar with it? Actually they are 2 similar alloys with the brand name of aermet 100 and aermet 310.

I could probably whip up a batch if I had some cobalt. BTW, cobalt is toxic, just in case you didn’t think I knew that.

Here is the specs and a little treatise by the folks at Cambridge about it's martensitic structure.

 

http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.a...1&c=techart

 

http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.a...8&c=TechArt

 

http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMater...p;group=General

 

 

 

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...00%22&hl=en

[DGentile]

I am unfortunate, but must tell you, that none of the provided links seems to work...

 

daniel

[Bennett]

Sorry about that. I'm a computer doofus

 

Try agian

http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.aspx?i=103&e=161&c=techart

http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.aspx?i=103&e=158&c=TechArt

http://www.matweb.com/SpecificMaterial.asp...0&group=General

 

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:GEhXBBV...et+100%22&hl=en

[B. Norris]

Looking at it quickly, I am wondering what advantages you see in this alloy, as opposed to say 1080? In my OPINION, it does not get very hard; only RC 54-55 at hardest and while I do not think one could break it, plain carbon steel at RC 54-55 is pretty hard to break as well, but with the caveat that it does not require expensive alloying elements and is much easier to heat treat. Have you ever considered S5?

[Bennett]

I've looked into the S seris steels. Not too bad.

 

I looked at the AM 100 about a year ago, and forgot about it untill I started messing with thermit. Basicly I'm trying to design a sword specific alloy. Looking for performance.

 

The simple steels, 10XX seris, are a joy to work, and have a lot of beauty, but come up a little short in the performance catagory, for the most part.

 

One downer is that all this high alloy stuff is a b!tch to heat treat.

 

I only make about 2 swords a year and if I can't do the heat treat right, I send it out. no sense in waisting the potential of the steel.

[B. Norris]

I guess it comes down to what you consider performance to be. I would think, perhaps incorrectly, that with the 10XX steels they have the potential to be hardened at the cutting edge to a higher RC value than the AM 100 can reach, while still having a softer core for resilience and shock resistance. What specific advantages do you see the AM 100 having over other steels? Please do not think that I am attacking your judgement I just seek to further my own knowledge.

[Bennett]

Not a problem. I will try and answer your question without incurring anyone's ire.

 

The chemistry of AM 100, or other alloys are the main contributing factor in toughness, or impact strength. Remember I'm talking swords. A hard edge in itself is good, as long as it will not chip, crack, etc with use. The old compromise. Hardness vs toughness, etc.

 

It's just matching the right steel and heat treat with the right tool. I will say that simple steels are still the most good looking. Some of the high alloy stuff looks very 2 dimensional. But I'm more into performance at the moment.

Go here and punch 1080 in the search. You can compare the specs to any alloy you want. Remember to match the attributes of the steel and heat treat to the component you are designing. http://www.matweb.com/index.asp?ckck=1

[DGentile]

I believe the hardness, at a max. of 55HRC (upper limit, unlikely in practical "shop-ways"... more like 50-52 I guess) is quite a bit insufficient to maintain a good edge. none of the stuff I make gets below 55HRC... and usually for edged stuff there's not much need to go lower than that.

 

For me, again just my opinion, swords should be made from "plain" carbon steels or good tool-steels. differentially treated (no matter what method).

I have used different swords for various martial arts for more than 15 years now... some perfomed well others were crap at best.

I believe in what I have tested on my own.

and here not anything has beaten a well treated carbon steel blade.

 

Howard Clark, and a couple of others have lately spent a lot time with a heattreatment optimized to achive a bainit-structure... these blades have been true performers when it comes to stability...

Get a look at howards page (http://www.mvforge.com/)... his L6 Katanas are quite the thing from a performance point of view.

 

Personally, I see no need to use expensive and "complicated" alloys as the ones you have listed here to get what I need.

These steels have their main field of use for quite different things as blades and from the chemistry I suspect that they will not make decent cutters.

And what good is a sword that does not break but it unlikely to cut good or long as well?

On the other hand if you want to make theatrical props or blades for ren-fair show-fighting groups or such stuff.. these alloys might just prove to be the perfect thing but I'm not into that (as I prefer "real" blades).

 

cheers

 

daniel

[Jake Powning]

yeah i would say Crusible L6 and a low temp salt pot will get you just about as tuff a performance blade as you can get, and it will hold an edge. I've had some pretty impresive results from Marquenching L6 blades and destruction testing them, and I guess the Bainite blades are much more durable, and there are ways to differentially heat treat with a bainite body and a martensite edge; i haven't gotten around to frigging with this too much as my salt pot is still giving me grief every time I try to heat it up. But a mar quenched blade is good performance, i suspect that you could get good results marquenching 1075 and other 10xx series steels that have a bit of manganese in them like the old 1084, I'm not sure about 1080.

You can't go wrong with checking out what Howard Clark and Randal Graham are up to, those guys know their steels and they have both been on the quest for performance in sword steel for decades.

[Bennett]

ok, thanks

[R.H.Graham]

I havn't had better results with much other than 10XX and some of the low-alloy steels.

Some of the strongest "standard" swords I've made have been with 1086M, intentionally lowering the hardenability with normallizing and running very low austenizing temps, the edges get hard, the thickest parts generally don't and it's a nice mix, drawn at 475-500 multiple times. Leaves the edges up pretty high, 57 or so, but they are quite flexible and very difficult to break. The blades *can * be bent, but it takes alot... far tougher overall, and at a higher edge-hardness, than anything that's gone before in the ancient context. And since it's a pretty simple steel, it's somewhat "historical".... some folks dig that.

I've had similar results with W-1, 1095, and 1084 as well. 1084 marquenches nice, if you can find it.

 

5160, L-6, or other similar alloys can be even stronger in straight-up martensite heat-treats, L-6 especially. We've made a lot of the bainite thing, but even a straight oil-quenched L-6 blade with good draws is a frighteningly strong blade, with no difficulty in ending up with 56-57 edges if you want. Marquenching either is a real good way to go. I havn't found 5160 will hold edge as well as L-6, or be any tougher, but it's easier to deal with. Good normallizing and annealing with L-6 can be quite problematic with a big blade. To really make the most of it you have to consider high and low-temp salts.

 

the S-series works great too, but it's a pain in the ass to forge, and still I don't think it gets any stronger than L-6 in the end.

[Richard Furrer]

Leaves the edges up pretty high, 57 or so, but they are quite flexible and very difficult to break. The blades *can * be bent, but it takes alot... far tougher overall, and at a higher edge-hardness, than anything that's gone before in the ancient context. And since it's a pretty simple steel, it's somewhat "historical".... some folks dig that.]

 

 

Read the above by Randal again. In specific the portion on higher hardness and far tougher. Other than the odd few that may have had what we now call a "hard" edge I think most of us would be surprised at what an ancient or medieval sword actually was. Overall performance is much better today........and it should be given the science and the steels used.

In the end we are soft and squishy and I still get paper cuts so a 57 rockwell "C" edge will do great harm......as would a 37 rockwell "C" edge.....it would just need sharpening after the first ten or so legs or arms it went through or shields it smacked against.

 

I think simple or "plain" carbon is just fine for a sword. Having the salt pots and steels that react well to that type of control is nice as well, but not needed, not "required" in the strick sence.

 

Ric

[Byron J. Skillings]

Read the above by Randal again. In specific the portion on higher hardness and far tougher. Other than the odd few that may have had what we now call a "hard" edge I think most of us would be surprised at what an ancient or medieval sword actually was. Overall performance is much better today........and it should be given the science and the steels used.

In the end we are soft and squishy and I still get paper cuts so a 57 rockwell "C" edge will do great harm......as would a 37 rockwell "C" edge.....it would just need sharpening after the first ten or so legs or arms it went through or shields it smacked against.

 

I think simple or "plain" carbon is just fine for a sword. Having the salt pots and steels that react well to that type of control is nice as well, but not needed, not "required" in the strick sence.

 

Ric

 

 

Had occation to learn about AerMet 100 this week. Very high toughness, very high strength, compared to most other steels. Great for certain industrial applications. Of course wondered about possible sword applications, but Ric considered this two years ago...

 

Another high strength steel is Hy-Tuf, that does not have the cadmium issue.

 

No arguments with Randall or Ric about the historical issues -

 

Cheers,

 

Byron

[Bennett]

Hi ya Byron.

 

Wow, old thread. I've changed my philosophy somewhat since then. Moving away from the real exotic stuff with difficult heat treats. I'm liking the more subtle, micro alloying techniques as of late.

 

Columbium/niobium for example, has some profound effects on grain and carbides, as a micro alloy. I have a strong hunch that transition metals in the platinum group can benefit "simple" steel tremendously, using minute amounts. Rhenium in particular. That is from a barnyard bladesmith's perspective.

 

Tomorrow, weather permitting, I'm doing a large run to alloy, (hopefully), those 2 ingredients in some steel. The only other alloy I'm using is a little bit of nickel.

 

All I need is a lot of heat and a good calculator to heat treat the stuff.

 

Good to hear from you, Jerry

[kb0fhp]

Jerry - you might want to look at 300M - it is available at the high hardness - can be practically air hardened, and it is really tough for this hardness. It was used for landing gear and still is for large commercial aircraft. It was used for navy aircraft - and you know that takes a beating. Heat treating is pretty conventional - and you can get it very hard - HRC 60+, and it naturally has a fine grain size.

 

Scott

[Bennett]

Hi Doc.

Yep, I've got some in the shop, only it's 4340mod (Scott was from McDonnell Douglas, pre merger, and I'm from Boeing). Those LG beams on the Hornets sure do take a beating. Love that steel. But it's so....so... off the rack

Our heat treaters are getting so good at that stuff, that they get it up to 300,000 ksi consitantly @ around 51-54 Rc. I will make something out of it some day, as soon as I build my arm up. That stuff is strong even at forging temp.

[Howard Clark]

300M, 4340mod, and there is one other ultra high strength alloy of the same (almost )chemistry D6C or something like that. They are all basically 4340.

L-6 is the same alloy, just .7C so it will get hard for real. It still retains all the good things about the alloy combination of Cr, Ni, Mo.

[Bruce Godlesky]

Is niobium considered a prescious metal?

And why is it added to some steels?

Enquiring minds and all. bruce

[Bennett]

300M, 4340mod, and there is one other ultra high strength alloy of the same (almost )chemistry D6C or something like that. They are all basically 4340.

L-6 is the same alloy, just .7C so it will get hard for real. It still retains all the good things about the alloy combination of Cr, Ni, Mo.

Hi Howard.

Yep, all prety much 4340. There is also 4340H, which is just 4340 with a little tighter mill spec. The mod has a touch more Si for flex strength.

 

Is niobium considered a prescious metal?

And why is it added to some steels?

Enquiring minds and all. bruce

 

No, it's not a precious metal. I buy mine from my wife's bead supply. It's one of the most hypoallergenic metals, and is used extensively in jewelry and body piercing.

They have been doing a lot with it as an alloy ingredient, as of late. I hear that welders are now using it to shrink up the grain in the welment, and thus increase the strength of their welds since they cannot heat treat their work. Interesting metal.

[Bruce Godlesky]

Just wondering. I have a small ingot and wondered wotinell I'll do with it.

[Bennett]

Just wondering. I have a small ingot and wondered wotinell I'll do with it.

 

Sweet!

Small doesn't matter with Columbium/niobium. It's a micro alloying ingredient. BUT, it's also a "refractory alloying ingredient". That means that you need a LOT of heat in order to uptake into your melt. Not for the casual home smelter/melter. If you can design a furnace, and have top notch crucibles, and refractory, there is nothing stopping you though.

 

One big gremlin, that is rarely mentioned.....niobium oxide. It will totally screw up any melt. It can withstand any heat, and causes huge voids and cold spots. Don't ask me how I know. Be sure and abrade any niobium, prior to any melt.

 

other than that, just do a lot of reading on refractory alloys and such.