Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Zeb Camper

Faux sheer steel

Recommended Posts

Hey guys! I have a question... I want some sheer steel. The only problem is that I'm not technically awesome enough to make my own yet :(. But, I figured I could take some w2 and wrought iron and fold it over enough to force carbon and slag across some boundaries in order to make some fake sheer steel that could literally be almost the same thing. 

My question is how many times should I fold it? I started out with 2 layers and welded about 5 times I think. So I should have 32 layers. The method behind the madness by starting with only 2 layers was soaking at welding heat for a longer time, thereby possibly causing more carbon migration. 

I went ahead and beat it pretty randomly around the bias to make it look like it was beat pretty randomly. Does it even look real yet? Or do I need more layers? And the pics don't do it justice. Every thicker layer has several smaller layers between it. 

Thanks! 

 

20181012_182757.jpg

20181012_182750.jpg

20181012_182529.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe you can make your own!!! But if it would help any I have quite a bit of carburized wrought that I'm not going to be able to use for quite some time and when I do get back at it I have no plans for it, if you would like some to help on your endeavor i will send some out to you next week. Just send me a PM if your interested.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've used 16 layers, which I was quite happy with. I started a new billet, but at 8 layers, I've lost half of the steel already, and a lot of forging hours into it. So I'm not going to do another fold, as I simply don't have the time. The cutting edge here has 16 layers (need to remake that some day, due to the weld flaw in the wrought): 

IMG_20170608_183123.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have always taken it up into the high hundreds of layers...(800+)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The higher the layer count the more authentic it looks when it comes to blades.  Of course, most people have no clue and you could tell them anything.  But that wouldn't be nice. ;)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Jeremy Blohm said:

I believe you can make your own!!! But if it would help any I have quite a bit of carburized wrought that I'm not going to be able to use for quite some time and when I do get back at it I have no plans for it, if you would like some to help on your endeavor i will send some out to you next week. Just send me a PM if your interested.

Thanks man, but you'll want that someday! I couldn't accept that. But thank you a ton for the gesture. 

5 hours ago, Jeroen Zuiderwijk said:

I've used 16 layers, which I was quite happy with. I started a new billet, but at 8 layers, I've lost half of the steel already, and a lot of forging hours into it. So I'm not going to do another fold, as I simply don't have the time. The cutting edge here has 16 layers (need to remake that some day, due to the weld flaw in the wrought): 

IMG_20170608_183123.jpg

Thats a good looking blade Jeroen! 

I lost about half of my steel too. I folded pretty much exactly in the center every time though. I guess the steel that's lost is all forge scale? 

Thanks Owen and Alan! I can't make much more use out of this one, but I'll make some new multi layer billets and fold them about 6-7 times. I need to get the hammer running again! 

Thanks!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I folded it a few more times... Not sure how I got the big white streak on the one face but it's looking good I think. I might do a san mai with this, forge a blade, and see if it even hardens. 

20181014_171124.jpg

20181014_171136.jpg

20181014_171133.jpg

20181014_171140.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What kind of bread you using for this sandwich?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Jeremy Blohm said:

What kind of bread you using for this sandwich?

I don't know. Wrought iron I suppose. I dont want to waste any more time making steel if this stuff turns out to be low carbon. I suspect it may be a 1045-1060 equivalent.... I hope it is anyway. It'll make for a nice wall hanger I'f not, but as dark as it etched unhardened, I would guess I'm right. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I made a sandwich.... It's not really big... What should it be?

I would guess it's 1"x 6" total blade length. The tang is wrought and the blade is wrought/sheer steel. I actually drew the wrought out and folded it and welded a Y shape together, then put my sheer steel in the mouth of the Y shape and forge welded it all shut. Seems like it could be an authentic method. 

I want to make something from history with it, but the small size doesn't allow much creativity... Thoughts? 

 

20181019_152348.jpg

Edited by Zeb Camper

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some kind of Japanese style knife maybe?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you can find a copy of "Knives and Sheaths from the Museum of London," it is full of small everyday knives dating from ca. 800 AD - 1600 AD about that size and made by that exact method.  All of which were found in the mud of the Thames where the original owners accidentally dropped them while getting into / out of a boat.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/20/2018 at 2:22 PM, Alan Longmire said:

If you can find a copy of "Knives and Sheaths from the Museum of London," it is full of small everyday knives dating from ca. 800 AD - 1600 AD about that size and made by that exact method.  All of which were found in the mud of the Thames where the original owners accidentally dropped them while getting into / out of a boat.

Don't you mean "Knives and Scabbards (Medieval Finds from Excavations in London)"? That's knives found from medieval waste dumps in London, dating from 12th to 15th century. Or is there another book that I'm not aware of?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are correct, Jeroen!  I was going from memory, which was obviously a bad idea...:lol:

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks again! I looked for "knives and sheaths" the other day and could only find "knives and scabbards". I was like "this can't be the one, could it?"! I'll buy it when I get caught back up on everything. I'm on one of my penny pinching streaks due to a previous spending streak. 

I'll look through that thread when I get a spare couple hours to let it soak in. I skimmed through it earlier, but it didnt digest yet. Thanks! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Those late medieval knives from the book are quite delicate, so you can go a long way with a piece of metal like that. Here's one I made earlier from the book (wrought iron & spring steel):

 

42803089_2180124275543911_2977898811424243712_n.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks good! The problem I have now is that I think my core may be getting too thin. I need to inspect the bar good before I go any further with forging...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As long as you get the core exposed at the edge, that shouldn't be a problem. If you look at the blade above, the core and wrought layers started out as the same thickness. After filing, there's not that much of the wrought left. And I forge pretty close to final shape. Next time I would make the core significantly thinner compared to the wrought layers. P.s. what helps is to grind a V-edge, at a 90 degree angle or thereabout before forging further. That way as long as you keep that edge line straight, you know you will have steel at the edge.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a great tip Jeroen.  Thank you for sharing it.  I've been wanting to do a 304ss san mai blade, and not knowing a good way to monitor that I was keeping the stainless away from the edge during forging was one of the main things that has kept me from trying it.  Now I just have to figure out how to forge weld!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Alex Middleton said:

That's a great tip Jeroen.  Thank you for sharing it.  I've been wanting to do a 304ss san mai blade, and not knowing a good way to monitor that I was keeping the stainless away from the edge during forging was one of the main things that has kept me from trying it.  Now I just have to figure out how to forge weld!

I believe stainless has to be welded with no oxygen at all present. This means in a can, or with all the seams arc welded shut. I wouldn't fool with trying to arc weld on that stuff.

Forge welding is very simple. Preparation is key. On damascus, making sure all the metal is clean and oxide free, and tacking your billet together helps keep everything together.

Get it to a dull red and put some 20 mule team borax over the cracks. When the billet turns near the same color as the forge walls, look for the flux bubbles to start dancing around each other. Let it soak just a minute. Don't stare into the forge too long. Treat it like the sun, because it has a lot of UV rays and can damage your eyes in a manner similar to arc flash. Take peeps now and then, or wear shade 5 glasses and stare all you like B).

Pull that sucker out and with the biggest hammer you are comfortable with using with the biggest face, start giving firm blows at one end of the billet. Imagine your hammer is pushing the steel, don't swing too hard. Go from one end to the other, letting that flux shoot out of the side furthest from you and to the sides (wear old cloths/ apron, you'll get burned). 

Repeat that twice more with firmer blows each time. Take one more welding heat, turn the billet on its side and true the sides up. Working the sides at welding heat eliminates cold shuts. 

And that's enough knowledge about forge welding to be dangerous with anyway. 

Good luck! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Zeb Camper said:

I believe stainless has to be welded with no oxygen at all present. This means in a can, or with all the seams arc welded shut

I've read the same thing.  The plan is to bring the billet into work and have one of the guys fuse it together with a TIG welder.

Thanks for the tips on the general forge welding.  I'm swear I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but are you fluxing on each heat while you're setting the welds or only on the first one?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/26/2018 at 12:18 PM, Alex Middleton said:

 

Thanks for the tips on the general forge welding.  I'm swear I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but are you fluxing on each heat while you're setting the welds or only on the first one?

I tend to flux at least on the first 2 passes. Not typically on the third. I work my metal just long enough on the anvil to cover the entire length of the weld, then flux and throw it right back in for another pass. When you turn it on its side to true it up, if the billet is unevenly stacked you may need to flux it and actually forge weld some parts down to avoid cold shuts. If you notice cracks, flux the crap out of the crack and soak it in the forge for a while (without burning it) if your forge has the right atmosphere the scale in the crack will either turn back into steel, or desolve in the flux. Do your best to hammer it closed. 

After that just heat and beat. Do it a few times and you'll see it's not hard at all to do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×