Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Zeb Camper

Faux sheer steel

Recommended Posts

Guest

If you make excess of this steel id love to get my hands on some to put a few layers in damascus :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks! But with wrought being so precious I won't make any more. Turns out you can just carburize wrought to get shear steel. All that folding makes for lots of steel loss! 

But I do like the way it looks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Its not true wrought iron but I wonder if a manganese nail bloom would work for this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Er... Im guilty of doing a bloom with nails, lots of beer bottles, nickle slag and cast from past blooms and 1075 powder, So I too have done this. When I have a work space again I may just try a very short low carbon run to see if I can forge weld enough nails to make  "iron" and decarb it.

I have a can of Cpm 10v I thought about adding to a bloom as well but sheer steel just seems SO much more authentic

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing wrong with nail blooms!  The late Louis Mills made his oroshigane from nails.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

10$ buys enough nails for three to four small quick blooms, and then 1075 powder is like 20$. you can easily spend more on beer and pizza feeding your party then on the steel

Edit showing off and would this be enough iron? Its 3/8ths thick 4 inches wide by 10 and a half flat or would i need to buy more?

15437622643001156365950.jpg

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can make oroghigane from pretty much anything as long as the alloying elements are appropriate for what you hope to get out of it. There's a video in the multimedia section where I do a demo on this. One of the last pieces I made using this process hit over 64 rc, based on the hardest chisel in a set staking over the surface like glass. I've never sanded steel before that the paper glossed over without biting. Also I was the guy who made a sword from nails! It's a thread called A Sword Fit for a King if you're interested. Naegling, a sword whose name literally means 'from nails'

 

I've seen people make shear steel by leaving wrought at the bottom of a charcoal fire for a long time while it's thin. But again, the alloying elements make a big difference. In my experience material with a high amount of phosphorous especially is very hard to carburize effectively and has a harder time hardening than low phosphorous material. So my advice would be build a fire in charcoal and burn it slowly, high heat and high speed are not your friend unless you want to melt your iron. Low temp and long soak are key. I would put the thin iron in a can and add some charcoal, then let soak in a low (1500 ish) fire for an hour, open the can and see what you have, compare to an unaltered piece of the same material, and use the sparks to determine how far you still have to go. Steel making is a finicky pursuit but is certainly worth the trouble and heartache.

 

I like the grain you got by mixing the 1095 and wrought by the way! It looks very authentic though more contrast than you might expect from folded and refined shear steel. The real visual trick of that material is the way the homogenous nature of it plays with the weld lines. In an ideal world the material looks uniform over its entire length and the lines are just an artifact of the refining process. It is a very subtle contrast that you can begin to approximate using modern materials, but they have to be folded and manipulated in what you may see as odd ways coming from a modern steel background. The folding method and types or type of steel makes a big difference. I use 1075 folded on itself, as well as other 'lower' carbon 10xx steels in order to replicate the look of bloom. 

 

Here is a blade made of oroshigane highlighting my points, very homogenous low contrast material, but the grain is made up of the fold lines and small amounts of silica left in the material. This is a very important look for the Japanese and Viking Age pieces, but you can approximate the grain through proper manipulation of modern material. If you want to achieve a similar look with modern steel and not 'waste' the wrought iron then I suggest you use 1075 and fold it on itself ~12 times or the equivalent of that many layers and make a piece out of it. You may be happily surprised with the result! 

 

Screen Shot 2018-12-02 at 10.21.10 AM.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

My experiment is more... Going with the theory of shock dispersal using different alloys then astetics, so I need steels made differently in different stages of grain configuration? chasing the silly Damascus myth.
 

so cut part of wrought iron in a toilet paper roll painted with satanite and packed with charcoal.

I never quite understood the low heat long time, sustained temps at 2200 doesnt melt the steel but doesnt the carbon diffusion spread out the content absorbed better and give less case hardening?

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not really following what you mean in your last few posts , but either way you should check out Kevin Cashens recent video on shear steel. The man is a real asset to the community and outlines the beginning of an experiment with shear steel in the video. He uses 1850 as a temp for carburizing. Remember that carbon content and melting point are inverse, and cast iron will melt readily at low heats. By that token iron will melt only at much higher heats because of the lack of carbon. As you start adding carbon your material will melt. The last time I tried to carburize in a very hot forge fire I ended up only with a tip and tang of a beautiful tanto I wanted to carburize, but instead I turned it into tiny blobs of cast iron. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

. It is easiest to use wrought iron that is already very thin, so the carbon does not have far to migrate.  If you start with clean wrought strips no more than 1/8" thick packed in powdered charcoal (Ric Furrer uses a carburizing compound because it works even faster), holding at welding heat for half an hour will give you blister steel (or cast iron, it happens like Emiliano said).  The satanite coating is probably not going to work, though.  Use a short length of thin wall rectangular steel tube that you can weld an end cap onto.  The packet MUST be airtight or it won't work.  You could make boxes out of castable refractory, but they would add quite a bit to the time required. 

Industrially produced blister steel was done with 1/4" to 1/2" thick bars three feet long packed in pre-fired stoneware boxes measuring around 10" wide x 4" thick by 36" long with stoneware lids sealed with fireclay.  These monsters were then roasted for up to a week at temperatures as hot as was economically possible, usually in the 1350-1600 degree F range.

For small-scale production, we can take advantage of how much more we now know about ferrous metallurgy compared to the guys who were doing this prior to 1860.  For instance, we know carbon is the culprit (not widely known prior to about 1800).  We know it starts to move from areas of higher concentration to areas of lower concentration at any temperature above absolute zero.  We also know it gets noticeably faster at around 1350 degrees F, fast enough that it will move 1/16" through iron in about a day.  On top of that, we know the hotter you get it, the faster it moves.  At 2100 degrees F it will move that same 1/16" in less than an hour.  They probably knew this in the old days, but but two things stopped them from doing it that hot industrially: it takes a LOT of fuel to keep a large solid fuel furnace running that hot for long periods, but more importantly they did not know about grain growth.  Or even more importantly, how to fix it.

Above about 1425 degrees F, in simple steels grain growth begins to occur.  The higher the heat and the longer the soak time, the exponentially larger the grain will get.  Back in the day, all they knew about that was that overheated steel was brittle and looked "crystallized" when it broke.  Now we know that's because of the large grain size produced by overheating.  Even better, we also know that thermal cycling the steel back and forth through its critical temperature (where the phase change in crystalline structure takes place) reduces grain size every time you do it.  We call this normalization.  Three or four normalizations will take the biggest grain you can make in a forge down to a nice tight even small grain.  

And I don't understand your last post either, are you talking about the "damascus is crucible steel is wootz" thing?  If so, fine, we do that too, but it's a totally different process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

vibration, sound and impact forces travel through an object based on mass and hardness. So when you look at the grain structure (grains are clusters of elements bonded together). the elements and carbides of common steel they are like roads for that vibration and the clustering offers resistance to that "shock", it passes through iron quickly but the clusters resonate separately. Those very same elements are your carbides, and hard elements, and this is why steel vibrates is that energy has a hard time getting through. This is literally how guitar strings work, but it takes a bit of imagination, I guess imagine a shortwave starting at one end of a picture passing through to the other and getting stopped by the non iron elements.

SO now you compare normal steel to CPM steel when they advertise about grain structure and it makes senseimages.jpg

If you now look at the twist patterns in migration period blades each and every layer and twist is a different alloy, arranged in a different configurationpatweld4.jpg
Except that twist pattern continues through history and blades start to get mixed between different stages of steel, just the same the serpent in the sword principle is that those bands of alloy composition oscelate so the "wave" has to pass through the same material in layers over and over in increased waves its like adding more layers to your blade sideways.

You end up with the same principle in Japanese steel lamination, its not just about flexibility but how the material resonates from a blow as the shock from impact travels outwards throughout the blade. Wrought iron plays a very important role in that behavior.

So I want to collect materials made in different forms and stack them together and see if the effect holds true in very high layer count. I am not the best at explaining this but basically the alloys are aligned differently in the steel. (its improper to say I want differently configured molecular structures, they are called grains)

It's also just a theory until I can collect all the parts. sorry for the theory rant. The Damascus theory is mixing layers of hard and soft.

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/2/2018 at 3:24 PM, Joe Wulvz said:

vibration, sound and impact forces travel through an object based on mass and hardness. So when you look at the grain structure (grains are clusters of elements bonded together). the elements and carbides of common steel they are like roads for that vibration and the clustering offers resistance to that "shock", it passes through iron quickly but the clusters resonate separately. Those very same elements are your carbides, and hard elements, and this is why steel vibrates is that energy has a hard time getting through. This is literally how guitar strings work, but it takes a bit of imagination, I guess imagine a shortwave starting at one end of a picture passing through to the other and getting stopped by the non iron elements.

SO now you compare normal steel to CPM steel when they advertise about grain structure and it makes senseimages.jpg

If you now look at the twist patterns in migration period blades each and every layer and twist is a different alloy, arranged in a different configurationpatweld4.jpg
Except that twist pattern continues through history and blades start to get mixed between different stages of steel, just the same the serpent in the sword principle is that those bands of alloy composition oscelate so the "wave" has to pass through the same material in layers over and over in increased waves its like adding more layers to your blade sideways.

You end up with the same principle in Japanese steel lamination, its not just about flexibility but how the material resonates from a blow as the shock from impact travels outwards throughout the blade. Wrought iron plays a very important role in that behavior.

So I want to collect materials made in different forms and stack them together and see if the effect holds true in very high layer count. I am not the best at explaining this but basically the alloys are aligned differently in the steel. (its improper to say I want differently configured molecular structures, they are called grains)

It's also just a theory until I can collect all the parts. sorry for the theory rant. The Damascus theory is mixing layers of hard and soft.

Alright Joe, let's dumb this down if we can.... 

You talking about impact resistance, and energy transfer gained through processes such as torsion bars and multibar constructions? Sort of like a "dead blow hammer" or how a cast iron anvil has no rebound? Are you suggesting that these processes are far more than just for show?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

The metal has be dissimilar. I think soft cores on steel swords are old history, it sponges the impact. (1018 to 1095 is not a dissimilar metal)

so it would be like layering W2 to wrought iron only instead id be scarf welding that to another batch of dissimilar metals, to another stack to another stack... and then something like a jelly roll, jelly rolled again after its a bar. Tis a big silly project for the ghetto smith I am.

Im more focused on increased durability of the blade.

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You do realize you'd ultimately have to test the blade alongside a solid w2 blade, and a differentially hardened blade? You'd have to test a piece of painstakingly hard to make and very beautiful piece of steel?

Also, would you not want wrought mixed with a deep hardening steel? 

 

Edited by Zeb Camper
Morning head fog made me do it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

It wont matter eventually. problem is the parts I have made are much tougher to hand forge then A2, and it gets worse when they're stacked.

anywho, when I get a good day ima make some sheer steel for this project.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×