Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Zeb Camper

...And so it begins!

Recommended Posts

7 minutes ago, Zeb Camper said:

That was the idea to start, but I then realized it'd make a nice box lid for the KITH knife to go in. The runes read 

"ZEBULON CAMPER 

KITH"

However, knife in runes would be spelled "nif" (not counting that it would really be "sax"). So I botched that up! Also "the" (as in "knife in [the] hat")would have started with the "th" letter of futhark that is represented by a shape similar to a P but with the straight line protruding above the p as well as below. So I botched that up too! I think my name would've been spelled "kampr" or "kempr" in order to use futhark correctly, but I'm still green on my research. Correct me at will!

I think I'll still use it though! If whoever gets it hates it, then use it for kindling!

I learned how to read runes along time ago lol.  But yea that will make a lovely box I’ve got a little wood carving kit I haven’t fully dived into it just yet.  But learning how to read runes now that was a challenge and a half. I’ve got my name tattooed in runes on my arm lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your next step is to learn to read runes in old Norse! If only they had a Rosetta Stone program for it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never did like phonetic transcription of English into Runes. If someone who only spoke old Norse read them, the sounds would probably come out as English words, but would be total gibberish to the speaker. It would make more sense to me to translate the English into Icelandic and then transcribe the Icelandic pronunciation into runes. I think that would be closer to using Old Norse. Proper names of course, could be transcribed directly as they would not change when spoken in the new language. 

Which rune set are you using?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Zeb Camper said:

Your next step is to learn to read runes in old Norse! If only they had a Rosetta Stone program for it!

Yea that’s a bit tricky to learn lol.  Gotta do that the old fashioned way with a book and a notepad lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And runes are strictly phonetic, so...

I get a kick out of new-agers thinking all runic inscriptions are magical incantations, and that each letter means something more than just the sound.  Yes, sometimes they do, but they are a phonetic alphabet first and foremost.  The magic is that very few could read them, thus conferring power on those who could.

Knowledge is power, and the powers that be always discourage others from gaining knowledge in order to retain power.  Sometimes a G-rune is just a G-rune, in other words.  B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Joshua States said:

I never did like phonetic transcription of English into Runes. If someone who only spoke old Norse read them, the sounds would probably come out as English words, but would be total gibberish to the speaker. It would make more sense to me to translate the English into Icelandic and then transcribe the Icelandic pronunciation into runes. I think that would be closer to using Old Norse. Proper names of course, could be transcribed directly as they would not change when spoken in the new language. 

Which rune set are you using?

I kinda feel the same, but no one here (I don't think) speaks the language fluently, so for our English based forum knife swap I thought it appropriate rather than something like "sax un shlagerbager shvicten" 

I'm using younger futhark. I would like to use the elder, but apparently most of the knowlage of the letters' sounds are based on speculation at best. 

Sorry if I'm looking like a newb Alan! I'm just messing around with the stuff while learning about it. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't dare touch a blade with runes mind you! But a box? Why not!? It was just a practice piece to start with. Wasnt till after the fact that I figured it'd make a cool box lid. The letters fit beside the braids perfectly for space fillers. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dude, none of us know enough about it (with the possible exception of J. Arthur Loose) to be authoritative.  :lol:  It's just a way of writing.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All alphabets are phonetic no? It's just that if I was Russian and tried to spell "good morning" in English "runes" I would write Dobray utro and no English speaking person would have any idea what that meant. I went to college with a guy from Iceland and he told me that they still spoke a very close version of Old Norse. Google translate is your friend here. You can even hear the language translation spoken. Then you could use the phonetics of runes to write the language (hopefully at least some dialect) of the old Norse folk. (at least that's my thinking)

Once I find the time to memorize the phonetics of the Younger Futhark, I will start using them in inscriptions in this fashion. In the meantime, stuff like Zeb's box is still very cool and excellent workmanship too. Carry on and don't let anyone's personal tastes dissuade you. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW-Google translate says Icelandic for "Knife in the hat" is Hníf í húfu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Alan Longmire said:

And runes are strictly phonetic, so...

I get a kick out of new-agers thinking all runic inscriptions are magical incantations, and that each letter means something more than just the sound.  Yes, sometimes they do, but they are a phonetic alphabet first and foremost.  The magic is that very few could read them, thus conferring power on those who could.

Knowledge is power, and the powers that be always discourage others from gaining knowledge in order to retain power.  Sometimes a G-rune is just a G-rune, in other words.  B)

Lmfao I 100 percent agree with you there.  Only reason I learned them is because of my family background.  Runes are a just a written language and not much more than that. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe there are examples of Norse runes being used for languages other than Norse.  I know for a fact that Ogham was used for several languages as far apart as Gaelic and Latin.  This actually confused an early translator of inscriptions in Ireland.  He got a number of good, legible, translations in Ireland, and then went to England only to find that he got gibberish.  It was much later that someone tried to see if there might be another language involved.

There is a case in Mexico where the word symbols continued to be used, but where the carvers were no longer literate and so the inscriptions become decoration rather than text.  There is a story there, I think.

Ogham could be done like file work on the spine of a knife, which would be a nerdy way to sign a piece.

oghamstone2.jpg

Geoff

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, from what I've read so far (not enough), futhark runes were used as far as Germany. The Goths had their own splintered version. I'll bet language was different in different areas using the same runes, but I only know what noise these things make so far, and nothing else.

The Goths were the Germanic tribe that helped deliver one of the last crippling blows to the Roman Empire IIRC. Weren't they?

The Icelandic theory sounds good enough. I'll give it some research and if it pans out I might just try Rosetta Stone in the car! Then spell words by sounding them out. Thanks Josh! 

My family thinks I have a problem here of late :lol: I come home from work to do research, and take notes, or practice carvings, or drawings in period style, or reading novels (Bernard Cornwell at the moment) and going through books on historical finds (with workouts in there too). Only to spend the weekend forging or pre-meditating attempts to come. :lol: told my boss my back was hurting last week. He said "why don't you take it easy for a weekend!?". And here I am, feeling a lovesick type of longing to make things cool, and dead serious about learning a new language!!! 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Runes and letters are nothing more than sybols used to identify vocal sounds. Alphabets are shared among various languages, so yes, Geoffakes a good point, but typically the different languages always share the same (or mostly the same) alphabet. The romance languages and English all share the same alphabet, with very minor variations. 

The problem I have is not shifting languages so much as switching alphabets, while retaing the language. That just makes no sense to me. If I switch language but both languages use the same alphabet, that's like spelling shoemaker as shumacher. No problem. Easily understood by English and German speakers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say when I do use runes on an object, it tends to be the Anglo-Saxon futhark and translated to Old English as best I can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Joshua States said:

 

The problem I have is not shifting languages so much as switching alphabets, while retaing the language. That just makes no sense to me. If I switch language but both languages use the same alphabet, that's like spelling shoemaker as shumacher. No problem. Easily understood by English and German speakers.

You're losing me here. I'm obviously not getting it. I thought I was, but you seem to word this like you're making a point. 

I understand letters make sounds everybody has made that point, and persistantly so. It makes me think something went way over my head. I agreed that the language should be of the same time period and of one of the same places as spoken and written but that I was just "playing around" with them for now. I understand it would be easier to learn a living language that closely resembles the old one in order to use these runes on something from that time and location. 

What am i missing? 

54 minutes ago, Alan Longmire said:

I must say when I do use runes on an object, it tends to be the Anglo-Saxon futhark and translated to Old English as best I can.

Was Wessex using old English back during the time when they were recording everything before everyone else in England? That was the same time frame as the manufacture of the staffordshire hoard artifacts wasnt it?  Wasn't Beowulf converted from old English? Can one find any type of material to learn some of this? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Zeb Camper said:

You're losing me here

I've been lost. All I know is the carving looks awesome!!!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Zeb Camper said:

You're losing me here. I'm obviously not getting it. I thought I was, but you seem to word this like you're making a point. 

Fuggettaboudit.

Keep doing what you are doing. As they say in Texas, "You good".

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beowulf was originally written, or written down, since it almost certainly existed long before it becomes text, in Old English.  Old English hardly resembles Modern English at all.  Even Middle English (the language that the Canterbury Tales was written is) is pretty far removed.

The Futhark runes serve pretty well for most of the Northern European languages.  Written languages are just a way of enciphering sounds.  You can write most European languages in a single alphabet, this one.  Once you get into languages that have different sounds, a click language or pretty much anything in NA, you start to need some more sounds.  For that we have developed the IPA (the International Phonetic Alphabet) which contains symbols for those sounds.

The real point is that the Futhark Runes can represent many different languages, which could make reading them hard.  It's very nearly impossible to decode a text if you can't first identify the language.  No progress was made decoding Linear A and B until someone made the connection that the inscriptions were in Greek.

The Ogham inscriptions in England are interesting because they had to have been made by, or at the direction of, someone who could write in both Latin and in Gaelic.

Geoff   

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Geoff Keyes said:

Beowulf was originally written, or written down, since it almost certainly existed long before it becomes text, in Old English.  Old English hardly resembles Modern English at all. 

The Ogham inscriptions in England are interesting because they had to have been made by, or at the direction of, someone who could write in both Latin and in Gaelic.

Geoff   

Pretty cool about the Ogham Geoff! 

I might have found a good study guide for old English. It has the original text next to a modern translation. 

Screenshot_2019-01-23-20-47-13.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I bought a book last night that is supposed to teach old english (not the Beowulf one). I'll let y'all know if it's any good! 

Thanks for the conversation fellas! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im interested in runes, where do i look to start learning this stuff? 

Also where do I look to start learning about vikings, and there weapons. I know there are a lot of experts in that field on this forum, I would love to if someone pointed me in the right direction.:)

Edited by Conner Michaux

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, Conner Michaux said:

Im interested in runes, where do i look to start learning this stuff? 

Also where do I look to start learning about vikings, and there weapons. I know there are a lot of experts in that field on this forum, I would love to if someone pointed me in the right direction.:)

Look up younger futhark on Google several places have cheat sheats that tell what letter makes what sound. Use cross references to make sure the key is accurate. To truly learn it, start writing regular English in runes. Just like learning your ABCs. Then learn what language you'd like to write them in (or translate the words via google). 

The book in reading now is historical fiction and has lots of accurate info on culture, weapons and places. Its called "the last kingdom" by Bernard cornwell. That should give you inspiration to continue your studies. There is a group on Facebook called "the seax files" with tons of good info in the files. Join up! Ian pierce's book "swords of the Viking age" is a good one. Look around in the history subforum here of course! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Conner Michaux said:

Im interested in runes, where do i look to start learning this stuff? 

Also where do I look to start learning about vikings, and there weapons. I know there are a lot of experts in that field on this forum, I would love to if someone pointed me in the right direction.:)

Elder Futhark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH0ZhhGwCOQ

Younger Futhark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q3MGzbxk2U

Maybe we could start a thread of internet Runes sites that are credible? Maybe, just maybe, it would get pinned somewhere......

Edited by Joshua States
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Joshua States said:

 

Maybe we could start a thread of internet Runes sites that are credible? Maybe, just maybe, it would get pinned somewhere......

Do it man! It'd fit right in at history or carving and applied arts! I was using elder futhark this whole time, but the site I got my info from said younger. Can't believe everything you read! :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...