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Trying to decide on a standardized process


Gerhard Gerber
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A chat with my mentor the last time he popped in to town has left me a bit confused about how to process with my knife making in general.

The difference between him and myself is he uses Damasteel, Elmax, high-end stainless steels.  He heat treats in foil envelopes, and he has a Rockwell tester.....

As for myself, I used salvaged carbon steels, as well as shop bought 5160 bar stock and 14C28N. 

I do have a digital kiln and knu foil.

What has me confused is my mentor told me he grands to final thickness pre heat treat, no grinding afterwards, just clean-up by sanding. He can get away with this because he avoids decarb with the foil.

My problem is after having seen it done once or twice, I really don't want to use foil.  Secondly I don't think the price class of my knives justifies the cost of the foil, which was rather expensive.....

The alternative I'm considering is anti-scale compound. The stuff is also expensive, and I'll need to source and import from South Africa.  

I've seen the remarks of a very well respected knife maker that recently switched from foil to anti-scale and he was very positive.

Things might change if I can source better belts, but recently I had issues with post HT clean-up grinding and having to fix those mistakes.

The options comes down to either:

Grind, HT, final grind & clean-up or

Final grind, HT with anti-scale, sanding & cleanup.

Since I don't have any experience using anti-scale compound I'd appreciate your opinions on the stuff.

 

I know this is a non-issue for the Masters out there, and if I could I'd get the stuff, try it out and add it to my arsenal to be used when appropriate.

Problem being my cash reserves are quickly running, I need to start more effectively replacing my lost monthly income, and knives are the only way.

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The higher I go in the grits with the JFlex crap the worse the belt bumps get.  I was feeling relative great yesterday afternoon.....until 400grit.

Them wasted 30 minutes hand sanding with 400 grit and went back to 220.

Anti-scale or 3M belts or both........money for nothing and your chicks for free.....

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If you can get the Trizact belts, they have zero bump.  The downside is you can't get them wet or use them on wood.

The antiscale I have works, but I don't care for it.  If you get it over 1550 degrees  f it combines with the steel and must be ground out of the pits it leaves.  But that is just one brand.  I want to try the stuff Dan O'Connor is selling down in the sales forum, because he's a great guy.

To me, foil only makes sense if you're doing steels that respond well to plate quenching,  because the risk of accidental bending, warping, or just not guenching fast enough bothers me for those steels you have to cut out of the foil before quenching.

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7 hours ago, Jeremy Blohm said:

Didnt @Joshua States use whiteout as anti scale? I can't remember where I seen the thread. I will dig around for it.

Yes I did, and it does work. However, it is expensive and I think it impedes the hardenability somewhat. I also talked with another smith (Ryan Larson) at one of our blacksmith meets who said he just uses plain white latex paint base. So I tried that, using some Kilz latex based primer. I noticed the same reduced hardening as with the white out. The blades still get hard, just not as hard as I am used to. 1095 as-quenched was at about 62-63 HRC. W-2 came in at around 61-62 HRC. Not sure if raising the temp will cure that, still have to run more tests.

“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”

The only bad experience is the one from which you learn nothing.  

 

Josh

http://www.dosgatosdesignsllc.com/#!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdJMFMqnbLYqv965xd64vYg

J.States Bladesmith | Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/dos.gatos.71

https://www.etsy.com/shop/JStatesBladesmith

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On 5/17/2019 at 2:41 PM, Alan Longmire said:

To me, foil only makes sense if you're doing steels that respond well to plate quenching,  because the risk of accidental bending, warping, or just not guenching fast enough bothers me for those steels you have to cut out of the foil before quenching.

True, didn't think of that and even the 14C28 specifies oil quench.

Friday's hand sanding got me practically nowhere, Saturday morning's rough grinding was fruitful, except I know what follows.....

Saturday afternoon's forging was fun and blister-filled :lol:

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8 hours ago, Gerhard Gerber said:

Friday's hand sanding got me practically nowhere, Saturday morning's rough grinding was fruitful, except I know what follows.....

I am going to share my newest method for finish grinding that I think saves a lot of time. Mind you, I have a 9 inch reversible disc sander, So if you don't have one, this isn't going to work for you.

I take the blade to 120 on the belt and then move to the disc at 150 this basically flattens the bevel and straightens the edge. Back to the belt at 220 and then to the disc at 220. Hand sand inline with the blade to 220 to remove all the 220 disc scratches. Disc at 320 to remove all the 220 hand sanding. Hand sand at 320. And so on back and forth from hand to disc upping the grit at the disc until I put the final hand sand at whatever grit I want my finish at.

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“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”

The only bad experience is the one from which you learn nothing.  

 

Josh

http://www.dosgatosdesignsllc.com/#!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdJMFMqnbLYqv965xd64vYg

J.States Bladesmith | Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/dos.gatos.71

https://www.etsy.com/shop/JStatesBladesmith

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On 5/20/2019 at 5:41 PM, Joshua States said:

I am going to share my newest method for finish grinding that I think saves a lot of time. Mind you, I have a 9 inch reversible disc sander, So if you don't have one, this isn't going to work for you.

I take the blade to 120 on the belt and then move to the disc at 150 this basically flattens the bevel and straightens the edge. Back to the belt at 220 and then to the disc at 220. Hand sand inline with the blade to 220 to remove all the 220 disc scratches. Disc at 320 to remove all the 220 hand sanding. Hand sand at 320. And so on back and forth from hand to disc upping the grit at the disc until I put the final hand sand at whatever grit I want my finish at.

Thanks Joshua, I see what you mean.

Using the disc sander (on the side of my belt grinder's contact wheel) saved me with those cleavers I was struggling with, but I went through a stack of (bad quality) sanding paper.

Cleaning up the contact adhesive with Acetone is a mess, and I'm scared of messing up my contact wheel. To put things in perspective I'd get about 30 seconds of good steel removal then it was polishing, that was 180 grit.

I did find better quality sanding paper and bought a few sheets to test, I'll give your method a shot, thanks. 

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15 hours ago, Gerhard Gerber said:

Cleaning up the contact adhesive with Acetone is a mess,

I use a 3M spray adhesive like #45 and 3M spray adhesive remover. I have tried acetone and lacquer thinner as removers, but the 3M remover is the best by far.

“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”

The only bad experience is the one from which you learn nothing.  

 

Josh

http://www.dosgatosdesignsllc.com/#!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdJMFMqnbLYqv965xd64vYg

J.States Bladesmith | Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/dos.gatos.71

https://www.etsy.com/shop/JStatesBladesmith

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9 hours ago, Joshua States said:

I use a 3M spray adhesive like #45 and 3M spray adhesive remover. I have tried acetone and lacquer thinner as removers, but the 3M remover is the best by far.

It was a struggle to find bog-standard spray-on adhesive, 3M has no presence left in my country....pathetic actually.

My alternative is Klingspor auto paper, tried a piece yesterday (180 grit) and got slightly better performance, might just be feasible.

Also found out it's much more dangerous with a better abrasive......

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