Draw filing troubleshoot

[Gerhard Gerber 457]

My platten & belt issue remain unsolved, no disk grinder in my future, so draw filing seems to be my only choice.

Apart from rookie mistakes my big issue is occasional very deep scratches while draw filing which can't be sanded out, which sends me back to the belt grinder, and into a vicious circle.

I bought 3 new Pferd flat files from 1st cut to fine, they have one side edge with no teeth.

I have only 2 theories, either teeth break of the file and gouge the blade, or little filings get trapped and cause the damage.......I can't figure out which.

I've considered knocking the corners off the files, but they are new and a bit pricey so......

What says the crowd?

[Alex Middleton 831]

I get that issue from filings balling up and getting trapped in the file.  I've taken to wiping off the teeth with a towel every 5-6 strokes and it seems to help.

[Mike Ward 100]

Get a file card and brush the file every few strokes as it gets clogged up.

[Brian Dougherty 1,378]

Most likely it is the swarf/filings getting caught between the teeth and the blade causing your scratches.  A file card is handy for brushing out the crumbs if you can get one where you live.  I brush the file off every few strokes if I am trying to get a good finish. 

https://www.amazon.com/Osborn-International-75116SP-Steel-Length/dp/B00J06IPQG/ref=asc_df_B00J06IPQG/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312139375902&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6854975773201851867&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9016682&hvtargid=pla-434442537059&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=63813709322&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312139375902&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6854975773201851867&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9016682&hvtargid=pla-434442537059

I've always heard that rubbing chalk on the file helps keep the swarf from building up, but I've never tried that.

[Alan Longmire 3,682]

What they said above.  It's called "pinning", caused by bits of the steel you're filing on getting stuck in the teeth of the file.  Chalk can help, but I find it to be messy.  Brush out the file every few strokes.

[Joël Mercier 702]

I have found lighter pressure on the file when you're nearly done helps with that issue, apart what's been said already.

[Doug Lester 400]

You could try a finer toothed file to reduce the scratches from the courser file before going over to sandpaper.  I will also stress that you should be cleaning with a file card every couple of strokes and switch to an unused section of the file frequently.

Doug

[steven smith 109]

Ive been wondering if you could use a fan to blow away some of the swarf, it can be a pain and it makes filing take twice as long if you have to knock/brush it clean every few strokes.

[Al Massey 75]

I like using soapstone on the file and every few strokes, tap and card the file. The tapping loosens the swarf in my experience.

[Joshua States 2,470]

On 6/28/2019 at 6:17 AM, Joël Mercier said:

I have found lighter pressure on the file when you're nearly done helps with that issue, apart what's been said already.

This is most important and the only thing I would add is lighter pressure ALL the time, not just at the end. There's a really good video of Don Fogg demonstrating draw filing around here somewhere. I'll see, if I can locate it again.

Here is the link: https://youtu.be/XJSfrp8VfNY

 

Edited June 29, 2019 by Joshua States

[Gerhard Gerber 457]

On 6/29/2019 at 4:38 PM, Joshua States said:

This is most important and the only thing I would add is lighter pressure ALL the time, not just at the end. There's a really good video of Don Fogg demonstrating draw filing around here somewhere. I'll see, if I can locate it again.

Here is the link: https://youtu.be/XJSfrp8VfNY

 

Thanks everybody, always good to know you're not alone.

My physiotherapist would like the advice of cleaning every few strokes because that counts as a rest I guess, problem being inpatients, don't seem to get much done without pressure.

I'll give the suggestions including chalk a try.

 

[Eric Morgan 175]

If I may add my penny's worth from my admittedly limited experience, find the right pressure and cadence/stroke. It seems to help me with my impatience and poor technique

[Gerhard Gerber 457]

Slowly, slowly catchy monkey

[Daniel W 95]

I tend to get into a rhythm of a few push strokes (about a half dozen) tap the file on a wood block that I usually have the blade/work piece clamped to,  and flip the file over.  This way I make a quick look at the used side of the file to see if there are many filing left in the teeth before I flip it back over. Just one of those deep scratch's is like nails on a chalkboard, just pulls your attention right to it if you can't get them out.

Chalk works, all of my old files in from my grandfathers stash were totally caked with chalk.  I always wondered why until I gave it a try.

I used the process that's shown in Don Fogg's video until I worked pretty closely with a knife smith friend. Since then I applied a little bit of a different method that I was then taught. To use the file, either pushed or drawn in the direction of the cutting teeth only, and to use the entire length of the file over the entire length of the blade/work piece. Where Don's video shows him working with the file perpendicular to the work, I use it more like 60 degrees to the work, and just one pull. Still light pressure, the file should almost float on the surface of the blade.  Think of the pressure needed as the tool should be doing the work, not you.

Its just a similar way to achieve the same results, all depends on what works for you, or in my case who taught you.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2019 by Daniel W

[Gerhard Gerber 457]

18 hours ago, Daniel W said:

Think of the pressure needed as the tool should be doing the work, not you.

I suspect I'm using way to much force, might explain why I'm hurting myself in the process.

Won't  "either pushed or drawn in the direction of the cutting teeth only" ensure that grooves are cut in the surface?

[Alan Longmire 3,682]

2 hours ago, Gerhard Gerber said:

 

Won't  "either pushed or drawn in the direction of the cutting teeth only" ensure that grooves are cut in the surface?

Nope.  Only if you go parallel to the teeth will that happen.

[Daniel W 95]

55 minutes ago, Alan Longmire said:

Nope.  Only if you go parallel to the teeth will that happen.

I was doing a little bit of filing yesterday and didn't think to take a pic or two to show how I 'draw' file to better explain my process for it. Not exactly easy to photograph when you are tying to do something with two hands as it is.

What you may also want to do, find one of your files that you don't care for as much anymore, and cut groves into the cutting face of the file. Make the cuts only as deep as the teeth, a little more doesn't hurt but the file will stick if the groves are too deep or not angled enough. Make these groves at the opposite angle of the cutting teeth, and much sharper than the cutting teeth angle. Make them about an 1in apart or so.  I found that doing this keeps the file very clean as it's giving those chips a space to collect and escape from.  I now consider this style of file my 'roughing' file where I'm trying to hog off material without much care of the finish.

I recently saw one of those 'pipe' cutter files that are made like this, I didn't use it, but I went ahh, that's what's its meant to look like.

 

Edited July 4, 2019 by Daniel W

[Gerhard Gerber 457]

First of all, thank you gents....once again.

My dad always said "met geweld kan jy jou vinger in jou hol af breek"......using force you can break off your finger in your a-hole

So less force, chalk and the angle thing......that all worked.

I'll still get RSI's, but my physiotherapist is a very pretty German girl, many others consider her a sadist, but I think she hurts good, so it all works out!

 

[Daniel W 95]

Looks excellent!

 

[Joshua States 2,470]

Lookin' great man.

[Gerhard Gerber 457]

Well......almost but not quite.....

Went down to 400 grit and found some scratches, had to go back to 100, 220, so I have one blade at 400 but not perfect either.

And my arm hurts.

[Joshua States 2,470]

21 hours ago, Gerhard Gerber said:

Well......almost but not quite.....

Went down to 400 grit and found some scratches, had to go back to 100, 220, so I have one blade at 400 but not perfect either.

And my arm hurts.

You have a disc sander if I remember correctly?

[Gerhard Gerber 457]

2 hours ago, Joshua States said:

You have a disc sander if I remember correctly?

The side of my contact wheel yes, but I've been unable to find good (enough) sanding paper or the correct glue.  I'm using contact adhesive and the paper works properly for about 30 seconds.......it's a messy hassle, becomes expensive fast and I'm scared of messing up my contact wheel.

So for practical purposes, no.

I'm still using it but for getting an edge straight or small things like that.

My neighbour gave me a sheet of chinese emery paper (60 grit) that I still want to try.

 

[Gerhard Gerber 457]

The only shop time recently has been spent battling a rather large (what I'm now calling a) butchers knife forged from a huge bearing race......as much of it as I could fit in my forge at least.

After profiling I started with the FFG bevels, and I'm alternating between grinding a draw filing, former to remove steel, latter to true everything up.

I get mesmerized at times and go to the finer files to see the effect rather than continuing the diet on the grinder, and I know the 36grit belt I was using is way past it's prime.........but the dull belt also made the mistakes smaller and easier to fix with the files.

Its ready for HT, just need to shape the tip.

I'm sore from all the back & forth, but I learned a lot from this blade and I have to get back to using the files more, I had to relearn a lot of the above......

[Doug Lester 400]

I guess I'm late back to this topic.  Anyway, those blades look great.

 

Doug