110v forging press build questions

[Kenon Rain.]

Hey all, I'm going to build a press. for the time being I am limited to 110v for power, so its going to need to be designed around that. I've seen and like the coal ironworks 16ton press and want to build something similar. I am a fabricator w access to equiptment and steel so the build part will be easy. I want to over build it so that I can upgrade it later into a heavier tonnage if i decide to.

 

my question is how the hell do I figure out what pump/ram combo will run alright on a 2hp 110 motor??

 

I think maybe running a 1750rpm motor w an 11gpm dual stage pump basically at half speed with a 4" ram would get me in the ball park but thats my best idea.

In the future ill swap to a big motor and probably run a single stage pump so im pretty much just going to build the frame heavy and use it until then.

 

on a related note, is there any advantage to be gained by building something with a mechanical advantage like an ironworker? you could use a faster weaker ram, but im not sure the gains in tonnage would be washed out by the lack of speed. This example below is interesting, I would design it a bit differently, but the punch section is basically a press, and they are calling out 40tons of pressure generated there. If it were moved out towards the ram a bit pressure would drop but speed and travel would gain. 20 tons would be sufficcient.

 

just a thought. 

 

thanks all

 

 

[JeffM]

On a metal ironworker don't try to retrofit a manual ironworker unless you like metal parts breaking and flying around...on the hydraulic version you're limited by throat depth

[Kenon Rain.]

There would be no retrofitting. I'd just build something mechanically similar. I'm an experienced fab guy.

 

What do you mean by limited by throat depth? If you're talking about an actual ironworker, I've used them and the punch section would work well for hot forging, but they are prohibitively expensive and usually three phase.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Kenon Rain.

[Geoff Keyes]

Speed would be an issue with what I was seeing, but that might just be ram size and pump speed in the video.  When I built my press I wanted speed and a large throat   I don't know enough about mechanical advantage designs to comment, but I have never seen one used as a forging press.  I know that knuckle presses are used in short throw/ high tonnage applications like coining presses, but again, that is the limit of my knowledge.

 

I'll be interested to see where you take this,

 

Geoff 

[Kenon Rain.]

15 minutes ago, Geoff Keyes said:

Speed would be an issue with what I was seeing, but that might just be ram size and pump speed in the video.  When I built my press I wanted speed and a large throat   I don't know enough about mechanical advantage designs to comment, but I have never seen one used as a forging press.  I know that knuckle presses are used in short throw/ high tonnage applications like coining presses, but again, that is the limit of my knowledge.

 

I'll be interested to see where you take this,

 

Geoff 

 

 

I'll probably just build a straight hydraulic press, but it does seem like you could build something with a mechanical advantage. maybe something with a lower die that you could raise up to the height of the work you are doing so that the stroke can be faster shorter and stronger with less wasted travel.

 

That actually would be pretty sweet. I don't know enough about engineering something with these forces to get the tonnage and speed I want, so it would be an overbuild and guess and check w basic math proccess. but ill draw something up on the pc to kind of show what I am thinking of when I get a chance tomorrow morning. I have a friend who is a master of solidworks and running mechanical simulations so maybe I could get his help.

 

simpleton that I am, if that machine I linked generates 40tons of power at the punch, it seems like I could move it out on the arms to where there is roughly 20 tons of force and get twice as much travel and/or speed. I could of course be oversimplifying but it could be interesting.

 

the goal here above all is to get 16tons of force or more which I think is the minimum for forging out of a 110v 2hp motor.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Kenon Rain.

[Geoff Keyes]

This may be useful

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Tech-Help/Hydraulics/Calculators/Cylinder-Force-Speed/

[Alan Longmire]

Interesting idea...  I like the thought of a smaller ram multiplying force through a lever like that.  Overbuilding is a must, though.  

[Kenon Rain.]

wow, check this out. these are the stats for that machine I linked.

 

Working Pressure (PSI): 2,500, HP: 3/4, Metal Shear: Yes, Volts: 115, Dimensions L x W x H (in.): 30 x 24 x 55 1/4, Bending Brake: No, Slip Roller: No, Amps: 20, Max. Depth (in.): 3 3/4

 

 

so its generating 40 tons off a 3/4 hp motor on 115v.  that is pretty crazy. and I think there is potential for a redesign for something that would function for our uses.

 

[Sam Salvati]

I scored one of those northern tool ironworkers brand new for free

[Kenon Rain.]

ok all, I ran some numbers to the best of my ability. And if I build something with this frame basically, and knock it down to 25 tons,

with 5" of ram travel @ 10tons of force, 20" away from the fulcrum, on the other side I will have 2" of travel 8" from the fulcrum. That is enough I think, because I will basically build the bottom die section to take stackable spacers of so I can increase the gap for tooling, or close it up for drawing

 

this is very similar to the frame I would build. just get parts cut from 1" pl so Its as strong as possible.

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_436253_436253

9 hours ago, Sam Salvati said:

I scored one of those northern tool ironworkers brand new for free

 

Thats awesome. what are the specs on the ram that's on it? and maybe the pump too.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Kenon Rain.

[timgunn]

The best hydraulic system I have ever seen for a limited-power forging press is the Anyang design, which uses a swash-plate pump with variable displacement. At low pressure, the pump is at full stroke and the ram moves fast. As the resistance increases, the pump stroke decreases, the ram speed decreases and the pressure developed increases. This means that the system is able to use the full power of the motor throughout the cycle.

 

I think the 25-tonne Anyang press uses a motor that is either 4 HP (3 kW) or 4 kW. It is pretty impressive and I get the feeling it probably out-performs most 10 HP presses and many 15 HP forging presses (though I have to confess to pathetically little actual forging experience myself).

 

 

All of the fixed-displacement-pump systems that I have seen move at a fixed speed and only use a fraction of the available motor power until the resistance is very close to maximum.

 

2HP is pitifully little power for a forging press.

 

I would be looking for ways to increase the available power, rather than trying to build something that will work poorly, at best, on the power that you already have available. If a bigger electrical supply is out of the question, could you use a gas- or diesel-engined power pack for instance? 

 

Work is Force times Distance. Power is work per unit time. I struggle a little with US units, so we'll convert to units I understand.

 

I think a US ton is 2000 Lb (as opposed to the 2240 Lb of the British ton or the 1000 kg of the Metric Tonne) 16 US tons is therefore 32000 Lb

 

32000 Lb is 14,545 kg and each kg of mass exerts a downward force of 9.8 Newtons at the surface of the Earth.

 

32000 lb (force) is therefore (14545 x 9.8) = 142545 Newtons

 

2 HP is 1500 Watts (as close as makes no difference).

 

Power(Watts) is Work done(Joules) per unit time(seconds), so 2 HP(1500 Watts) is 1500 Joules/second.

 

Distance is Work/force, so the distance over which 2 HP can exert 16 tons of force in one second is 1500/142545N = 0.0105 metres.

 

That gives a speed of 10.5 mm/sec for a 16-ton ram driven by a PERFECTLY EFFICIENT system: about 0.4 inches/second.

 

Perfectly efficient is unattainable.

 

It's over 30 years since I played with Hydraulics as part of my job, but I don't ever recall them being particularly efficient. Even allowing for 30 years of development, I don't think there would be much chance of exceeding 1/4" per second with a real-world 2HP, 16-ton system.

 

Hydraulics are usually used because they offer a convenient way to achieve a numerically large mechanical advantage.

 

Levers are usually very efficient compared to Hydraulics, but trying to combine the two seems like adding a lot of complication. If you want to be able to keep the stroke short with different thicknesses of workpiece, you could use adjustable limit switches to limit the return stroke or, if you are using a very basic power pack with just a relief valve, threaded adjustable stops on the return stroke. 

 

 

 

 

[Kenon Rain.]

4 hours ago, timgunn said:

The best hydraulic system I have ever seen for a limited-power forging press is the Anyang design, which uses a swash-plate pump with variable displacement. At low pressure, the pump is at full stroke and the ram moves fast. As the resistance increases, the pump stroke decreases, the ram speed decreases and the pressure developed increases. This means that the system is able to use the full power of the motor throughout the cycle.

 

I think the 25-tonne Anyang press uses a motor that is either 4 HP (3 kW) or 4 kW. It is pretty impressive and I get the feeling it probably out-performs most 10 HP presses and many 15 HP forging presses (though I have to confess to pathetically little actual forging experience myself).

 

 

All of the fixed-displacement-pump systems that I have seen move at a fixed speed and only use a fraction of the available motor power until the resistance is very close to maximum.

 

2HP is pitifully little power for a forging press.

 

I would be looking for ways to increase the available power, rather than trying to build something that will work poorly, at best, on the power that you already have available. If a bigger electrical supply is out of the question, could you use a gas- or diesel-engined power pack for instance? 

 

Work is Force times Distance. Power is work per unit time. I struggle a little with US units, so we'll convert to units I understand.

 

I think a US ton is 2000 Lb (as opposed to the 2240 Lb of the British ton or the 1000 kg of the Metric Tonne) 16 US tons is therefore 32000 Lb

 

32000 Lb is 14,545 kg and each kg of mass exerts a downward force of 9.8 Newtons at the surface of the Earth.

 

32000 lb (force) is therefore (14545 x 9.8) = 142545 Newtons

 

2 HP is 1500 Watts (as close as makes no difference).

 

Power(Watts) is Work done(Joules) per unit time(seconds), so 2 HP(1500 Watts) is 1500 Joules/second.

 

Distance is Work/force, so the distance over which 2 HP can exert 16 tons of force in one second is 1500/142545N = 0.0105 metres.

 

That gives a speed of 10.5 mm/sec for a 16-ton ram driven by a PERFECTLY EFFICIENT system: about 0.4 inches/second.

 

Perfectly efficient is unattainable.

 

It's over 30 years since I played with Hydraulics as part of my job, but I don't ever recall them being particularly efficient. Even allowing for 30 years of development, I don't think there would be much chance of exceeding 1/4" per second with a real-world 2HP, 16-ton system.

 

Hydraulics are usually used because they offer a convenient way to achieve a numerically large mechanical advantage.

 

Levers are usually very efficient compared to Hydraulics, but trying to combine the two seems like adding a lot of complication. If you want to be able to keep the stroke short with different thicknesses of workpiece, you could use adjustable limit switches to limit the return stroke or, if you are using a very basic power pack with just a relief valve, threaded adjustable stops on the return stroke. 

 

 

That was really informative thank you, the issue I have is that the shop that I will be using for the foreseeable future it would be a really difficult to get to 220 otherwise that would make much more sense so that I could run other equipment as well. I am interested in seeing if there is any way to make something usable on 110 for our purposes, because I know a lot of people are limited in power like I am currently. The coal ironworks 16 ton press is 110 and seems to serve its purpose pretty well. I know that more pressure is more useful. I suppose I could just build a 220 5 horse and run a generator for the time being. I do have an older log splitter style hydraulic press that runs on a 13 horse Briggs and Stratton but it is extremely loud and annoying to have to start each forging cycle

Edited February 5, 2020 by Kenon Rain.

[Geoff Keyes]

If you are thinking about a generator, think about one that will produce 3 phase.  This is something I only realized this year, but 3 phase out is something you can get, some surplus military generators run 110, 220 1 phase AND 220 and 440 3 phase outputs.

 

When I designed my press I was talking to another maker about his press.  He had 2, 5hp motors running 2 5 gpm pumps in parallel.  While we were talking about that he mentioned that he wished he'd have gone to a phase converter rather than change tools from 3ph to 1ph.  This got me thinking, and I discovered that the cost of a phase converter was about the same as the 2 motor, 2 pump system he had built.  In the end I went with a converter powering a 15 hp 3ph motor driving 12 gpm.  It's brute force, 30 tons, and it travels about 3 inches a second on a single stage pump (full speed through the stroke).  One of that advantages is that I can buy 3ph equipment (lathes, surface grinders, mills and such) and I have plenty of power to run them all.

 

I think today, since I have 220 v 1ph in my shop, I would go with a VFD rather than phase converter, particularly for the sub 5 hp applications.

 

Geoff