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The  39x24 sheet of 1/4 in steel  got cleaned up today. It had a lot of gas torch slag on the underside so it took a bit to grind all that off but when iot was done a 40 grit disc cleaned all the rust off the back and the thick layer of some type baked paint over near a 1/6 of filler in places. The edges were ragged from the gars torch and as I was/am going to lay the base on some soft 1 inch pine boards I decided to put an inch deep slot down the center of some 3x2 and make a frame that will match the boards underneath.
The 4x2 uprights are cut to length so I sat the off cuts on the plate for a mock up for the spring. There is a bit more prep work done but without it in one piece it will make much sense at this stage. I do have to pick up something for a base to the anvil to give it some more mass and a base plate for the uprights so will leave it at this stage till next week. Because of the weight of this finished unit is more than I will be able to move about I decided to make it with the anvil as a unit welded to a base plate that will be bolted to the floor plate the same way the uprights will be welded to a base plate that will bolt to the floor plate so that it will be in more managable pieces to get into place

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Edited by Garry Keown
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I have long wanted to forge a bit of my work rather than all stock removal but my shoulder and hand are against the idea and a "friend" (lol) sugested I get a power hammer, but I dont just "get someth

At some time down the road, you may choose to make a joke like "Oh great, now you want another pair of shoes, purse, makeup" My advice, don't.

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Posted (edited)

Really like the build so far Garry.  I can only add my own experience with a similar build.

 

Here are some of my notes:

 

1)  The bigger the anvil the better.  But it doesn't need to be all one piece.  When I built mine, I didn't have the money for big steel, but I did have an old 70lb anvil, a big piece of floor safe, some RailRoad track, and sucker rod.   I welded it all together like so:

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The anvil is welded to the floor safe top, welded to a 1" plate, welded to RR track base.  Then that is bolted to a 1" base plate that is bolted to a some RR tracks, that are bolted  to some RR ties, that are buried in the ground.  Total weight is over 400lb's for the anvil part, and around 200-300lbs for the base plate and RR tracks, etc.  It works well.

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I remember reading something about a "Triangle of Influence" regarding anvils, can't recall where or much, but it has to do with the force the blow traversing a certain triangle within the anvil, or something like that.      Either way,  if you can find the sweet spot within your anvil setup, aim for that with the tup and it should work well.

Also, I welded a casing of sorts around the anvil and filled it with sand.

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Please spare me flak for welding on an anvil, I've been berated on other forums before.  I was young and the face was badly damaged when I got the thing.  And to be fair, it's gotten way more use in my power hammer than it ever would again as a normal anvil.  It's been used up.

 

2) The tup, as other have said, can be multiple pieces. Mine weighs around 60lbs, and is comprised of some sort of axle, surrounded with 4" square tubing, filled with angle iron and other bits welded together.   Works great.

 

3)  I used Railroad track for my dies.  Used them as cut and welded.  No Heat treatment otherwise.  Bolted to the tup and anvil.  Works great. No Problems.

 

4) I use flatish dies.   I have a good flat spot on the RR track dies ground in, but I follow the curve other wise on the edges, and it works great for forging in bevels and thinning.

 

5) My flatish dies work well, but I've recently taken to making some tools.  I have a flatting tool, cutting tool, round and triangular (peen) tool in different angles.   I'd like to make some

spring swages,  but haven't had the need yet.   Never changed my flat dies since the build.  

 

6) I use a 2hp motor and tire clutch with a 3" drive wheel.  The tire is a crappy spare doughnut tire type.  The kind that only last's 50 miles or so.   Works great.  Little wear so far.  And the drive wheel is built from a 3" pipe locally sourced that is screwed into comparable parts and welded onto the motor drive shaft. (attached to motor via flexible shaft coupler.)

The 2 hp motor for the 60lb  tup, plus all the weight of linkage and springs, has been more that enough, and I don't think I'd go lower than that.  But that is what I am used to. So YMMV.  I get about 3-4 hits a second (depending on how hard I'm standing),  so I guess 180 - 240 bpm.  The tire clutch allows for great control, and I can hold the tup up if I wanted to.

 

7)  Build Guards.   I didn't (...).   Anyone doing this probably should.

 

8)  I used 1" thick uhmv for my guides. And bar/chain oil for lube.  (The chainsaw type).  No problems,  no noticeable wear so far.  I oil every time I forge, multiple times for heavy forging.  The oil breaks down and leaks with gravity.

 

9) The closer your tolerances on all the spinny bits, the better the thing will run.
   My original iteration of my hammer had an off center weld on the tire clutch drive shaft.  This led to the main spring to shaft linkage arm breaking.  And a lot of wobble.  I've since machined a 1.5" drive shaft and some hubs for the tire and drive linkage plate.  Much better.  Less wobble. 

 

10) As far as springs are concerned, I have 4 flatish truck springs. A set combined.  I have the back part bolted down to stiffen the action and the front is bolted just past the pivot to allow for  whipping action.  works great.  But I've recently had to upgrade the bolting on the back end of the spring.  Maybe it's the force of the motor, but the last 3/4 of the spring that is bolted together has been snapping bolts on me.  I used 3/8" grade 8 hardened bolts, and they were snapping on me due to the spring action.  I have upgraded to 5/16" grade 5 bolts, and have not had that problem in the last 6 or so forge sessions.

 

I do like shear point's, but that spot on the hammer needed more flex.

 

11) For height adjustment, I originally used an old RR turn buckle, which I thought would never break.   Guess what happened.     Snapped clean off.  I now use part of a ratchet chain binder as adjustment,  Much stonger.


12's)  I've filled any cavities in the steel with sand to dampen the sound and add weight. 
       I don't know if I'd be comfortable with this type of build moving any faster than         it does.  It hit's hard, and as and old employer once put it, "It'll pop it like a  zit". 
       

That's all I can think of for now.  

 

Hope any of it helps you with your build.

 

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Edited by Bruno
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I appreciate the input Bruno. My tup is 30 lb so not the weight of yours but for the type of forging I anticipate it will certainly be effective. I am going to get a heavier block of steel for under the anvil but do not envisage the excavation of the floor to burry anything down in there. At present the anvil is 132lb so at the most I will probably double that and it will be a triangle stack of no more than three if I can get the bits I want.

I am going to have a flat tup and anvil top with 4 inch dia x 1 1/4 thick bizzalloy faces having radiused edges. I intend to weld a table to one side so I can use sporing fullers for any different shapes I may need. I expect the drawing die will be first and then maybe a tapering die and a butcher die. They will have pegs in the lower arm to locate in the table top to keep them from moving around so that is the simplest solution to dies that I can think of.

What are guards :D

My motor is a 1 hp but is geared down through two sets of pulleys to about 220 rpm.

I have a two leafe set to my spring but can easily add another one or two leafs if needs be. I hadn't intended to secure the spring ends to each other but am happy to take advice on the needs or otherwise of this part of the spring set-up

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Another short step along the road today with another few bits garnered from the steel yard/ I also picked up the tup from the engineer with the inch bizzalloy hard face beautifully welded and the edges very nicely radiused. It fits inside the 3x3 to connect to the spring.

 

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I also picked up a piece of 7 inch dia round steel that weighs just on 80lb. The ram I bought for the anvil weighs 145lb which would reduce to 110lb when I cut off the 9 inches to maintain the 32in OA height so with the added  80lb  would make the anvil about 190lb. Is it worth doing this for the 45lb gain against leaving the uncut ram at 145lb with no weld bar the bizzalloy top plate.

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On my 60 lb hammer I built I originally had a hollow anvil and a 3/4 hp motor and was seriously disappointed. I then rebuilt it with a 500 lb anvil and a 1.5 hp motor, the difference was tenfold.  

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My 50# hammer (tup weight) has a 2 piece anvil.  It's roughly 600lb, plus some for the plate it's on.  There are flanges welded to the pieces and then they are bolted together.  One piece would be better, but this was what we could find when we were building.  That gives me about a 12:1 ratio, a little less to account for the 2 piece anvil.  More is better, no question.

 

See the source image

 

Geoff

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Posted (edited)

I did see another ram at the steel yard but didn't take a great deal of notice (it was in the cold part of the yard and it was -5c at the time) but if memory served it was a greater dia than the 4 inch rama I got and maybe in the 6 inch range so I will check it out next week when I am down there and if it is significantly larger I will see if he will cut me a piece off it. 

If it is a 6 inch ram a 32 inch piece should weigh in the 260lb range and be one piece rather than a stack of bits.

Edited by Garry Keown
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The helve hammer had a good boost today with the base plates bolted down and the nuts welded on the underside of the floor plate. The individual parts are just on heavy enough that being able to unbolt them if I have to shift it is an important consideration (for me anyway).

The stands for the drive arm pulley were welded to the base plate then the twin uprights got welded to their base plate with the angle irons welded to the top for the bearing housings to be bolted to. Dosent sound like a lot but it was a full day. 

I will get a couple of pics tomorrow as it was almost dark when I got done for the day.

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Posted (edited)
Was at the steel yard again today and picked up a heavier shaft for an anvil. This one will weigh 300lb by the time the 1/2" in base plate, the bizalloy hard face and the tool rest are all welded on so a good deal more mass than the 150lb one I had bought the last week. Had to top and tail it but the big powersaw and an overhead Was at the steel yard again today and picked up a heavier shaft for an anvil. This one will weigh 300lb by the time the 1/2" in base plate, the bizalloy hard face and the tool rest are all welded on so a good deal more mass than the 150lb one I had bought the last week. Had to top and tail it but the big powersaw and an overhead
 crane had it done in about 3/4 hour. At 300lb for my 22lb tup I am at 14 to one ration so near to the 15 to one quoted above and better than what I had with the smaller ram for the anvil.
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Edited by Garry Keown
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Got the floor plate done with the soft pine boards to cushion it against the concrete and sat the main frame and the final drive pulley stand in place. Still have some welding to do on them but I NEEDED so see it like this.

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Posted (edited)

I spent much of the day at the engineers getting the anvil for the helve hammer sorted out. Will upload a yourtube video I am editing to my W I P thread on the build. Welding the hard face on top and a button that could be center drilled for the lathe. It was later taken off

 

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In the big lather getting the hard face trued up and a bit turned down off the shaft so the table top would have a 10mm step up to the anvil top

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Table top and base plate welded on and ready to be bolted ontp the floor plate 

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I got a bit of tuition on how to join up a few short videos and uploaded it to youtube. This is where it started from the recyclers yard through to finish and ready to bolt down to the floor plate.

 

 

Edited by Garry Keown
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@Garry Keown I'm enjoying watching your build I built my Rusty style hammer a couple years ago and it's been running very well. If you are not done with your plans I'd be happy to share some photos. Nice anvil.

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3 hours ago, Gilbert McCann said:

@Garry Keown I'm enjoying watching your build I built my Rusty style hammer a couple years ago and it's been running very well. If you are not done with your plans I'd be happy to share some photos. Nice anvil.

It is all done except for the last bits being put together thanks Gilbert. Everything is here now. I just have to cut the tup shaft to length and weld in the ends and the same with the push arm. Mount the motor, wire it up and I am done.

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Dang, that was fast.  My projects take months............even years sometimes!

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I ran my rusty for a couple years before the mild steel spring broke. I got a spring pack for it and then bought a new hammer. I never finished fixing the old hammer. I really like what you have done so far!!! I am planning on building something like the anvilfire X1 or like Geoff's hammer for a friend of mine.

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5 hours ago, Chris Christenberry said:

Dang, that was fast.  My projects take months............even years sometimes!

You may have more paitence than I have. When I am in the midst of a project whether it is the planning or the construction I eat and sleep it, or rather I dont sleep like this morning I woke at 2.15am and got up at 3.30. By the time breakfast time riolled round I had thought through all that I could think of between where I was and when the project was finished and I could use it. Knowing how to go ahead with it meant I simply had to spen the day doing so.

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A good day in the shed. I spent the better part of the day on the helve hammer with some good progress made.
Still have to cut the drive arm and the tup shaft and make upm the connectors for them. I am going to do the connectors for both the tup and the drive arm with three sets of holes with the longest set for the lowest setting as @Alan Longmire sugested with an inch clearance at the anvil  then another set at 1 1/2 and 3 inches so in total I will have 6 inches of upward adjustment for when I may be using the likes of the spring fullers I will be making

I still  have to make up the gooseneck and guide but am really quite pleased with where it is
The motor is set so that I dont need a spring to hold it off the belt tension as the way I set it the weight of gives it a natural tendency is to fall back toward the main shaft so taking tension off the belt. I have a wood block for it to rest against but will replace it with a steel now that I have it worked.

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7 hours ago, Garry Keown said:

You may have more paitence than I have.

 

I'm an extremely patient man, Garry.    But "Life" gets in the way of most of my projects.  Either I'm waiting on parts that have been lost in shipment, or the incorrect parts arrive and are useless.  Or I've duties around the property that sidetrack me.  (trees have to be cut down and cut up into firewood lengths waiting to be split, or Llamas have to be tended to.)  Good example:  Today I have to travel to a different town about an hour away to have shearing blades sharpened so I can shear my Llamas.  It's getting hot and they are wearing one of the warmest wool on the continent.  It hit 95 degrees yesterday ad is supposed to be up in that same range today.  So I have to blow all the debris out of their coats and shear them.  The blowing part will take the better part of 3 hours per animal and the shearing about an hour.  I tend to put off a lot of the "honey do" projects until "honey" hollers loudly and then everything stops in regards to my hobbies.  Would love to finish my Dog's Head hammer today, but as I mentioned, "Life Gets in The Way".

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Looking good, Garry!

 

One thing to note when using V-belts as a slack belt clutch:  They tend to be grabby, making it hard to feather in light blows.  If you notice this happening, you may want to wax the grooves in the pulleys and the belt itself, or even add a little grease if needed.  Ideally the belt should be able to slip easily, but also grab tight when you really stomp the treadle.  Once you get the amount of slip figured out, and how much you need to wax, oil, or grease the belt and pulleys, you should be able to get anything from light taps to a full-strength blow just by a small amount of movement on the treadle.  

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Thanks @Alan LongmireI was going to add a three step block to where I can rest my foot at the different levels for different weight of strike so not having a grabby belt will aid in that. These are old belts that have weathered some so an  oil will do them so good in that regard.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Chris Christenberry said:

 

I'm an extremely patient man, Garry.    But "Life" gets in the way of most of my projects.  Either I'm waiting on parts that have been lost in shipment, or the incorrect parts arrive and are useless.  Or I've duties around the property that sidetrack me.  (trees have to be cut down and cut up into firewood lengths waiting to be split, or Llamas have to be tended to.)  Good example:  Today I have to travel to a different town about an hour away to have shearing blades sharpened so I can shear my Llamas.  It's getting hot and they are wearing one of the warmest wool on the continent.  It hit 95 degrees yesterday ad is supposed to be up in that same range today.  So I have to blow all the debris out of their coats and shear them.  The blowing part will take the better part of 3 hours per animal and the shearing about an hour.  I tend to put off a lot of the "honey do" projects until "honey" hollers loudly and then everything stops in regards to my hobbies.  Would love to finish my Dog's Head hammer today, but as I mentioned, "Life Gets in The Way".

Are you shearing blades a hand set or a powered set. You may find this pic giving you ideas as it has done for me. I intend to get an ols set and do something similar for a friend who was a blade shearer many years ago. I dont remember where I got the pic so cant attribute its maker but I am intriged by the concept. I think it was on the Australian FB page Knifemaking Downunder

shearers knife 1.png

Edited by Garry Keown
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Electric Dog shears, Garry.

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The wool must be just about grown again by the time you have finished such a lengthy chore. :D

 

Have a look at some of the NZ tricks  for these animals  https://www.thewrangler.co.nz/kiwick

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Cool table concept, Garry.

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