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Does anyone know of a steel that is high vanadium ( like CruForgeV) but low in chromium? The closest I’m finding is W2 but that’s not quite as high as I am looking for ( plus it’s got W). The closest description  to what I’m looking for would be a 1084-1095 with 0.5-0.8 vanadium.

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  • 1 month later...

My first reaction was W2. What's wrong with the W?

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The wise guy in me says if you don't like the W...go for D2

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Joshua States said:

My first reaction was W2. What's wrong with the W?

As far as steel goes, nothing, but I was just wondering if there was something with a higher V content. 

 

8 minutes ago, JeffM said:

The wise guy in me says if you don't like the W...go for D2

 

 

WAY too much Cr and I don't have an oven to HT anyway.

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I think Aldo's W2 is about it as far as a low alloy steel with high Vanadium.  https://newjerseysteelbaron.com/product/w-2/

 

I'm not seeing the analysis, but IIRC it was 0.95-1.1% C and 0.5% V.  The reason I always steer people to Aldo is because he has melts made just for him, and thus can specify the exact alloying levels.  That's why his 1084 has 0.1%V.  Ask him what the analysis for the current batch is!

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To clarify a bit why I'm looking for this; one of the first knives I made was from CruForgeV. I was new at forging knives and the write up on that steel said "specifically made for people who forge their blades". They didn't say that it was a pain in the butt to work with files and sandpaper...I finally got it done and it looks like a piece of junk. But it was the second knife I made so I made a sheath and use it - call me sentimental.

 

When I got done with it, it was SCARY sharp, and just didn't dull. I have had the knife for 4 years. I have used and abused it (one of the worst thing I did with it was cutting lots of high clay sod). In four years I have never had to sharpen it - and it still shaves hair off my arm, although it does pull a little more than it used to. I was just wondering if there was something out there with that much V that was shallow hardening for hamon development.

 

13 minutes ago, Alan Longmire said:

I think Aldo's W2 is about it as far as a low alloy steel with high Vanadium.  https://newjerseysteelbaron.com/product/w-2/

 

I'm not seeing the analysis, but IIRC it was 0.95-1.1% C and 0.5% V.  The reason I always steer people to Aldo is because he has melts made just for him, and thus can specify the exact alloying levels.  That's why his 1084 has 0.1%V.  Ask him what the analysis for the current batch is!

I didn't look at Aldo's. The standard I've always seen is ~0.3%V in W2. I guess the numbers are more like guidelines...

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12 hours ago, billyO said:

According to http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelchart.php?snm=w2

Aldo's W2 has only 0.165% V

Nowhere on that chart does it say that's Aldo's W2.  Check at the source, i.e. call Aldo and ask. Otherwise you're playing with mystery metal.

 

Edit:  Ah.  Found it, sorry, you were right.  I still don't trust that site.  

Edited by Alan Longmire
I was wrong, sorry.
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1 hour ago, Alan Longmire said:

I still don't trust that site.  

Care to give your reasons?  My main concern is I'm not sure how up to date the info is....

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3 hours ago, billyO said:

Care to give your reasons?  My main concern is I'm not sure how up to date the info is....

 

Because the source of the information is not clearly given.  Larrin at Knifesteelnerds always quotes where he got the analysis, if he didn't do it himself.  The zknives website seems to be the result of a bunch of idealized data, the 'typical range" of any alloy.  Several years ago I went to a hammer-in where one of the speakers was Mastersmith Burt Foster, talking about hamon and the importance of knowing exactly what you have.  He bought examples of W2 from several sources, like Diehl, Carpenter, Crucible, Admiral, and Aldo, and had a sample of each analyzed.  He found that the carbon could range from 0.75 to 1.25% and the V from 0.1% to 0.6%, with Mn ranges from 0.2 to 0.6%.  In this case the Mn is a far more important element to hamon than vanadium or carbon, but the fact remains that every melt will be a bit different and still be within spec. Maybe that batch of Aldo's W2 that was tested is unusually low in vanadium?  He has it made in 10,000 lb melts, and while that's a lot of steel, he does sell out every couple of years and every new melt is going to be a bit different.   That's why I suggested calling him up and asking him.  He's a fun guy to talk to.  Plus he has stuff that's not on his website. Once I wanted some 1/4" 1018. About all you can find anywhere these days is A36 when you want mild steel, so one day when I was ordering some 1084 I asked him about 1018.  He said "I think I have some 1/4" 1018 in 1.25" wide bars. Blanchard ground. Is that okay?"  It turned out to be 1020, but I bought all he had and used it for hawks as long as it lasted.  He gets other stuff too.   

 

In other words, anyone can find and list the ASTM/SAE/MilSpec/DIN/ etc. specifications for specific alloys, and as far as that goes that's fine.  If you want absolute control over what you're doing, and something like vanadium content is your most important concern, the only real way to find out what your options are is to get a certificate for the exact melt your barstock was rolled from.  So for general purposes, yeah, that site is fine.  Especially since they like listing the exotic stainlesses few of us use, but that collectors love to nit-pick about which is superior (zerodur vs. z-finit, anyone?) .  

 

In still other words, I'm a pedantic literalist. :lol:  Don't take me too seriously. B)

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Thanks for the explanation, Alan.  

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I went to NJSB to look W2 up about a month ago as Aldo now lists analysis by batch and printed it out. Latest batch he had listed was from Buderus:

C: 0.967

Si: 0.287

Mn: 0.22

P: 0.005

S : 0.004

Cr: 0.082

Ni : 0.033

Mo 0.006

V : 0.182

W : 0.006

 

Funny thing is now I go to look and I get error messages.

Regardless, it's not what I was interested in. When I get a chance, I am going to call Aldo and ask if he has anything close. As you said Alan, never know what he may have lurking...

 

BTW Allen, I guess I'm lucky for 1018 for hawks. There is a place 5 minutes from where I work that sells 20' lengths of actual 1018 from 1/16' to 4" thick and 1/16" to 4" wide. They allow me to go onto the warehouse floor and pick through the drops. The 1/4 inch stuff they sell to me at about $0.10 a pound.

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This steel uses tungsten carbides, which are right next to V carbides for hardness. I can't remember if tungsten increases red hardness though so I can't say if it's hard to forge. But from the looks of the alloying content, It could make half decent hamons.

 

I personally don't like carbides so I prefer high hardness and hair popping low angle edges :lol:

Screenshot_20200806-180839.png

Edited by Joël Mercier
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Bill,

 AKS (Alpha Knife Supply) lists Cru Forge V on their website under blade steels. Could ask for the specs on their stock perhaps.

Gary LT

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21 minutes ago, Gary LT said:

Bill,

 AKS (Alpha Knife Supply) lists Cru Forge V on their website under blade steels. Could ask for the specs on their stock perhaps.

Gary LT

I have said this before in another thread, probably a long time ago. All steels have a standard range of element content that is acceptable, and still classify as a specific steel type. (AISI)

There are two ways to order steel from a foundry.

Customer A says I want some XYZ steel. He can get anything with an assay the falls into the AISI range.

Customer B says I need 10K pounds of XYZ and these are the specific tolerances I am willing to accept and hands the foundry an assay. The foundry makes the steel and sends samples out for analysis. if it meets Customer B's specs, it ships, if it doesn't, but still meets the AISI values, it goes on a shelf and gets sold to someone like customer A.

Most of the knife steel suppliers fall into the customer A camp. NJSB is in the customer B camp.

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Very minor corrections and additions:  1) Steel mills in this case, not foundries.  2) They don't send out the samples, they test it in house before it leaves the furnace, if it is out of spec it gets fixed before they even pour anything.  3) There is also a good chance that a supplier (mill or foundry, but much more likely with foundries) has a special or proprietary alloy they can offer and will do so if it seems like the customer will want it.  

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2 hours ago, Joël Mercier said:

This steel uses tungsten carbides, which are right next to V carbides for hardness. I can't remember if tungsten increases red hardness though so I can't say if it's hard to forge. But from the looks of the alloying content, It could make half decent hamons.

 

I personally don't like carbides so I prefer high hardness and hair popping low angle edges :lol:

 

Joël, That does indeed look closest to what I had in mind. I think you are correct about tungsten though, so it would probably be an absolute bear to forge. Now I just have to see if I can find someone who sells it :lol:

 

1 hour ago, Gary LT said:

Bill,

 AKS (Alpha Knife Supply) lists Cru Forge V on their website under blade steels. Could ask for the specs on their stock perhaps.

Gary LT

I've got a bunch of the CruForge V from AKS and the analysis. If I'm not mistaken there was only ever one batch of that stuff ever made so the analysis is fixed. I think it makes a wonderful knife that takes a "hair splitting edge" and just never leaves. I buy a few pieces every time I order from AKS just to stock pile it. I think it has a bad rap because it is SO difficult to finish after hardening. The first time I used it I hardened before drilling my tang holes. Used two carbide drill bits to drill one hole and then gave up. Yes lots of newbie mistakes and not knowing how to fix them at the time...The other issue is that it has about 0.5% Cr so it doesn't do hamons well.

 

58 minutes ago, Joshua States said:

I have said this before in another thread, probably a long time ago. All steels have a standard range of element content that is acceptable, and still classify as a specific steel type. (AISI)

There are two ways to order steel from a foundry.

Customer A says I want some XYZ steel. He can get anything with an assay the falls into the AISI range.

Customer B says I need 10K pounds of XYZ and these are the specific tolerances I am willing to accept and hands the foundry an assay. The foundry makes the steel and sends samples out for analysis. if it meets Customer B's specs, it ships, if it doesn't, but still meets the AISI values, it goes on a shelf and gets sold to someone like customer A.

Most of the knife steel suppliers fall into the customer A camp. NJSB is in the customer B camp.

Yep, I am going to make time to call NJSB and see if he has anything interesting lurking in the dusty corners of his warehouse.

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You are close enough that the shipping won't break the bank. Unfortunately, I am not. Shipping from NJ doubles the price of everything I order, and I don't order enough stock to ship FOB.

BTW-where are you guys finding the analysis on the NJSB site?

Edited by Joshua States
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Joshua States said:

BTW-where are you guys finding the analysis on the NJSB site?

If you click on "select options" on one of the steels like you're going to order it and scroll down, he has started listing below the description active lot numbers to each size he has.

 

Although recently I've been getting a lot of "PAGE NOT FOUND" errors on the lot links.

Edited by Bill Schmalhofer
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On 8/6/2020 at 8:46 PM, Bill Schmalhofer said:

about tungsten

Yeah, after I wrote I just remembered it's basically what makes a high speed steel :lol:. Tough luck...

Edited by Joël Mercier
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