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does anyone use$50.99 hydraulic pump from Northern tool?


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I cant seem to find or figure why or why not use these pumps,I tried to get a link up,but I had to stop trying.I was hoping to find someone who has used oneof these.They are single stage all different GPM some are labelled"high performance" and some "low noise high pressure",today I see some are even $43.

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All the ones I looked up seem to have really low GPM which would result in a slow press. When building a press you want speed. 

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There are all gpm.I guess they are china built,but Id be lucky to find a tool at Lowes that wasn't.Do you use a 2 stge pump

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The press that I'm in the process of getting going is a monster. I'm honestly not sure what pump it has on it. The GPM is the gallons per minute. You want something higher than the 2.3 GPM these pumps are producing. I would look for something in the 10-15 GPM range. 2 stage pumps are ok but I have seen some 2 stage pumps have a pause before the second stage kicks in. An example of this can be seen on charming hollow forge you tube channel. He converted a log splitter into a press and there is a very noticeable pause between stages. If I was to build a press I would pay the extra money for a high end pump. It is the heart of the press. 

Edited by Jeremy Blohm
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I seen all your posts with your presses.I have a small frame that will just fit a 4.5- 5" cylinder with 8-10 " of travel,and 5hp single phase 1740 rpm motor, and with around 4-5 gpm pump I should get around 1" per sec time.Im thinking to try the cheaper pump and if its ok then fine,but after some trial,I could maybe get another one after some experience with the cheaper one.I do hear you about the heart of the machine though,I am convinced to go with the single stage though,I cant see how fast travel helps a blade smith that squeezes the steel in .25" increments most of the time.

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I used either a 22gpm or 16 gpm 2-stage pump that I got from the surplus center.  I can't remember which.  I have it mounted to a 16hp gasoline engine.

 

It works quite well with my twin 4" cylinder press.  It is plenty fast enough.  It's actually too fast at times and I have to run with the engine throttled back.  My particular pump shows no lag at all when it switches to the high pressure mode.  I can see if I still have the model number somewhere if you want.  I seem to remember that it was less than $200 new.

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1 hour ago, Mike Jesensky said:

I cant see how fast travel helps a blade smith

 

It's not about speed once the dies hit the steel, but before that speed is everything.  If you're trying to set a weld and it takes five second for your dies to hit the steel, you've lost your heat.  The dies suck the heat out of the steel fast enough no matter what, and I've never heard a smith complain about his press moving too fast.  Well, except Brian... :lol:

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You hit the nail on the head Alan.

You want the press to move fast to approach the steel and then to have some control when the dies contact the steel.

I have spent my career designing hydraulic equipment for steel mills and mines.

The easiest way to accomplish this is with a REGENERATION Hydraulic circuit using a single stage pump.

Most two stage pumps are a cheap gear pump that in most cases SCREAMS with noise  and you either have to turn them off after the pressing operation

or wear ear plugs all day.

My system is so quiet you can carry on a conversation and not even know it is running.

I just helped out a fellow smith in San Diego with his press design and he was amazed at how it worked.

K1CROPPED.jpg

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Gentlemen,thank you for your responses.I have not designed hydraulics before.I have a frame,and a 5 HP single phase 1740 rpm motor,and think I want a single stage pump,@5gpm and a 4/4.5/5"cylinder  that will(by surplus center hydraulic calulator)give me approx.1" per second travel at 1500 psi for at minimum between 15 and 20 tons,(I am plugging in #'s for all the cyls in my range they have in stock)Cal,My frame is a similar size to yours, close to framing in the cylinder,where I will have an opening for work that can be set to where I will only need "presses"of 1" most times,now I get the 2 stage for log splitters need to go all the way back ,so I'm convinced that single stage is what I want.I am very interested in the REGENERATION circuit you describe,I do see more componants on your machine,would you add regeneration to get more in my idea of a set up?I also would ask you guys if there could be caution in buying a cylinder from surplus center that is new, old, unused condition with a few or in some cases 1 in stock ,opposed to a new one that is described to be made by a Prince co. that they have 50 of?

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"now I get the 2 stage for log splitters need to go all the way back" .......what?

 

a two stage log spliter pump just pumps it doesn't go anywhere now the valve used on log spliters can come with an auto return but theirs no reason to use that valve on a forging press

 

any cylinder from surplus center is as good as the next mine was a take off meaning it might have been run at the factory but was then removed before it saw service

Edited by dragoncutlery
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I meant he higher GPM stage moves the ram faster to "go all the way back "more inches than I will be using in the press I want to build.I guess I could have described exactly what I meant better,but being that it wasn't the main point,  I gave little thought to it. Good catch.I'm glad I wont have to  teach my pump to sit or stay! Im glad to hear you have success with your cylinder.I hope to use the cylinder I buy there for some time,and I hope I don't need to rebuild it or whatever before using it.I originally made this post to ask if any one used the China made pumps that are cheap and with the design I am leaning toward,I am thinking that if I wanted to switch to better/ another GPM or 2 stage pump later it wouldnt hurt the wallet as much.

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I like this forum I've been researching hydraulic presses and hadn't heard of using a single stage pump. Great more to think about and research.

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Gilbert,I hear you! Since yesterday I have researched regenerative hydraulic circuits,and feel I dont want to add that into what Im planning,but now am leaning toward 2 smaller cylinders that may give me an upward working squeeze,so yeah more to go find out about.My thinking on the single stage is that we only take squeezes of .25" mostly,I wrote in a previous part of this post we only squeeze 1" ,but now that I watched more presses do what I want to do I think its more like.25" mostly.And I seemed to have changed the way my words look somehow?

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Nothing wrong with a single stage pump as long as you have the flow to move it.  And yes, most people only squish 1/4" per pass, if for no other reason the dies cool the steel too much to squish much more on thinner stock.

 

As for the letters, somehow you hit the italics button, that slanted I up top of the text box.  No biggie.

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when i was getting parts together it was my understanding a single stage pump would require a larger motor than the two stage with money being tight at the time/always i opted for the one i had a motor for and i found i do a lot of work with the press before the second stage even kicks in

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What pump do you have?I ask because I see a lot of vids that seems to look like what you say "doing a lot of work with 1st stage".If its 16 gpm @650 PSI 1st stage,with 5" cylinder that gives you around 6 tons at 3"/sec. to do alot of work with,with an extra push possible when needed.I feel that with the little bites I will be taking, I want to have the full tons avail and take the extra squeeze out of the equation,for now at least.I was hoping that someone had used the china made pumps so if I want to go to a 2 stage after "trying" the single I wouldn't have spent $200 on the 1st pump I buy.The more I have been sifting through parts and distributers,the more I see a lot of the parts we use are not USA made anyway.I bought a 4"cylinder,so I have a 5 hp electric 1740 rpm motor and the cyl and thinking to get a 4 gpm pump that will let me get almost 2000 psi for near 14 tons at around 1"/sec.

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I used a pressure compensated piston pump 5 GPM at 1800 RPM simply because   I had one worth about $2000.00

13 hours ago, dragoncutlery said:

when i was getting parts together it was my understanding a single stage pump would require a larger motor than the two stage with money being tight at the time/always i opted for the one i had a motor for and i found i do a lot of work with the press before the second stage even kicks in

 HP = PRESSURE X GPM / 1714/.85  so for example if you are pumping 3 GPM at 2000 psi it will take 3x2000/1714/.85 = 4.118 HP

The HP to driver a 2 stage pump is the HP to unload the larger section plus the HP to drive the high pressure low flow section during the pressing operation.

I really suggest you guys find a reputable hydraulic dealer that knows what he is doing and get them to design the system so you don't waste a lot of time and money on a system that either does not work or does not live up to your expectations.

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i have used mine for years and been happy with it. most of the dealers around here have new kids at the desk every time i walk in i wouldn't trust them to sell me the right hose with out double checking it before i walk out the door only place i know with pumps on the shelf are tsc and grainger supply next best would be the cat dealer/repair but if you dont have a catalog no well might as well get it on ebay

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I am looking for a "guy"in my neck of the woods as we type.I have the motor and ordered smaller"and$ cylinder than originally thought,to put a system together that will hopefully get me squeezing,and some experience.

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I am looking at hydraulic directional control valves .What center did you guys use and why?My idea would be to "position"my top die very close to where I was going to take my 1st bite ,and have it stay there until I was ready to start.I see an open center and a tandem center should do either and direct fluid back to tank,but what do you guys use?

Thanks

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On 9/7/2020 at 7:14 PM, Mike Jesensky said:

I am looking at hydraulic directional control valves .What center did you guys use and why?My idea would be to "position"my top die very close to where I was going to take my 1st bite ,and have it stay there until I was ready to start.I see an open center and a tandem center should do either and direct fluid back to tank,but what do you guys use?

Thanks

 

You want to use a tandem center valve. This valve will hold the cylinder in position and allow the pump flow back to the reservoir in the neutral position.

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Cal,would an open center drop by gravity? I plan on rod pressing downward with guides attached and there would be significant weight.I am now reading more about solenoid operation.I read these can be nice.Is there worry of pressure spikes with how quickly we instantly reverse these cylinders with either manual or solenoid spool controls?

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10 hours ago, Mike Jesensky said:

Cal,would an open center drop by gravity? I plan on rod pressing downward with guides attached and there would be significant weight.I am now reading more about solenoid operation.I read these can be nice.Is there worry of pressure spikes with how quickly we instantly reverse these cylinders with either manual or solenoid spool controls?

 

An open center could drop from gravity if the weight was large enough but I doubt it in a small press like this it would ,.....    but IT IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO USE , Use a tandem center ports A and B blocked, P port open to Tank in the neutral position . Forget about using a solenoid valve you will have very little control over what you are pressing.

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I had been sitting on a whole bunch of hydraulics trying to figure out how to fit them together for about a year. I thought I'd spend a lot less money that way, and get a press that goes fast and squishes hard. 

I saw these working and they were really impressive for their size:

https://coaliron.com/products/copy-of-12-ton-mini-press

runs on 110v/20 or 220v, 3.6 IPS, 6" stroke, 12 tons of squish. It has a tandem center valve with 1/2" SAE working ports (not NPT). I think the cylinder is 2.5".

I would not change any design with this power unit, and it's waaay smaller than the unit I was thinking of building. It takes 4-5 gallons in the reservoir. 

 

The specs on this one are more like what I was going to build:

https://coaliron.com/collections/hydraulic-forging-presses/products/25-ton-forging-press

I don't think I'd have been able to build it any better, or safer for that matter. Same overall hydraulic design, just 13 GPM with a 5" cylinder. 

 

If I was building a power unit again, I'd base it entirely on an existing system I can see in action to avoid any head-scratching. The system I was building would work IN THEORY, but it would take a few iterations to get right, and that would be money and time gone. 

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Ok,good I want control.Is there a 3 position spool with the usual tandem center at the end of the spool so I can go in and out without "skipping" past the center each time or is the center needed in the center for a reason I don't know?It seems the center on an end would be better for forge presses . I will be using a pump less than 5GPM ,and most spools are  rated for higher GPM,I assume these will work up to the listed GPM,but is there worry of using less flow through higher GPM  rated parts?Cal on your press I see 2 pressure guages where would I add these in mine?

20200909_173522[1].jpg

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