Canister damascus release agent

[Geoff Keyes 518]

I discovery (at least for me) in my foray into can damascus.  On a random tip I tried using Kilz primer on the inside of the can.  It works the way whiteout does, but a spray can of it is just a few $.  The can almost took itself off.  If you've watched any of the FiF guys, me included, struggle getting the can off a billet, this feels like cheating.  I coated the inside of the can, and let it dry.  Letting it dry is the issue, it needs time to do that.  You can cook it in an oven, or speed the process with a torch.

 

I took the ends off the can and ran a cutting disk down the flats.  The billet fell out, no fuss.

 

FYI

G

[billyO 220]

  

On 2/13/2021 at 2:20 PM, Geoff Keyes said:

I took the ends off the can and ran a cutting disk down the flats.  The billet fell out, no fuss.

 

Thanks, Geoff.  I'm getting ready to start that rabbit hole myself.  I was planning on not worrying about it, figuring I'd lose most of the can to scale during forging and the rest during grinding, but this might be a good thing to try in my first few attempts to verify that the billet is solid....

 

Did you do one or two coats?

Edited February 15 by billyO

[Geoff Keyes 518]

I did 2, but it was mostly to cover a couple of spots I missed.

 

G

[billyO 220]

Thanks Geoff.  One more thing to buy....

[C Craft 177]

Geoff, I haven't tried any canaster Damascus but, a thought just popped into my mind!

 

It looks like the heat of welding the final piece to the canister would destroy the release agent by cooking it!

 

How do you keep from cooking the release agent when welding the canister closed??

[Geoff Keyes 518]

When it burns it creates a layer of ash between the can and the billet material.  People have used all sorts of things.  Soot from a torch, heating the can to make a layer of scale.  On the episode of FiF I was on the eventual winner, Ashe, tried whiteout, without letting it dry.  When he tried to load his can, he noticed scale and things sticking to the  whiteout.  In a panic/genius move he lined his can with paper shop towels.  The judges, Dave Baker in particular, proclaimed him dead in the water.  Ashe cut the ends of his billet, locked it in a vice and gave it a pop with a punch and the billet shot out of the can like it was greased.  The paper apparently created an ash layer that kept the can and the contents from bonding.

The paper must have started burning when he welded the lid on, it just doesn't matter.  I want to try the paper trick with no other agent, I've just been too afraid. 

 

g

[Brian Dougherty 1,167]

On 2/13/2021 at 6:37 PM, billyO said:

  I was planning on not worrying about it, figuring I'd lose most the can to scale during forging and the rest during grinding...

I'm pretty sure you will regret not using some sort of release even on your first attempt.  It's really hard to get rid of all the can once it welds to your billet.

[Jerrod Miller 443]

On 2/13/2021 at 11:35 PM, Geoff Keyes said:

I want to try the paper trick with no other agent, I've just been too afraid. 

I, for one, would love to see your results.  What can we do to encourage you to try?  Should we give you loving encouragement and affirmations?  Or should we mock you relentlessly as a coward to light a fire under you?  Either way, I'm sure we're all here to help in whatever motivational support you need.  

[Geoff Keyes 518]

Please don't mock me!  I'm very fragile.  Ok, Ok!  I'll do it.  I've got a bunch of damascus to do in the coming weeks, I'll do the experiment.  I wonder if you could do a round tube can with a cardboard tube liner, hummmm.

 

G

[Jerrod Miller 443]

Now you're talkin'!  Looking forward to seeing the results!  

[Joshua States 1,716]

Glad to know the tip worked out. I've been using KILZ as an anti-scale agent for over a year now and planned on using it for the can release. The wife has been naysaying my doing the can weld. She thinks it will blow up for some reason.

 

BTW-The reason KILZ and whiteout work is the TiO2 as a pigment. The truth is that any white latex paint type substance should work.

Edited February 16 by Joshua States

[Jerrod Miller 443]

14 hours ago, Joshua States said:

BTW-The reason KILZ and whiteout work is the TiO2 as a pigment. The truth is that any white latex paint type substance should work.

 

I've seen that mentioned as the reason before, but I am not convinced that is the case.  Think about how clean the weld surfaces have to be for a good weld.  I think anything that will form a non-metallic barrier would likely work.  Killz is only 5-15% TiO2, per the SDS.  There is a lot of other stuff in there that is going to leave behind a film (burnt paint ash).  Though there is a lot of water in there (25-35%) that will evaporate away, making the dried content of TiO2 higher.  This is just my speculation at this point.  Geoff's tests will add to the knowledge on this.  I just had to watch that episode of FiF (yay HULU) to know if Ashe left the white-out in there or wiped it out first.  He left it in.  

[Don Abbott 115]

I was watching a video with Steve Schwarzer not long ago, and he recommended burnt/blackened stainless HT wrap as the ultimate release barrier in a canister.

 

I figure if it's on Youtube it ain't a secret anymore.

[Joshua States 1,716]

1 hour ago, Don Abbott said:

I was watching a video with Steve Schwarzer not long ago, and he recommended burnt/blackened stainless HT wrap as the ultimate release barrier in a canister.

 

I figure if it's on Youtube it ain't a secret anymore.

This is exactly what I use to wrap my Mokume billets. Been doing that for years. You do not need it burnt or blackened actually. It turns out that just enough with a propane plumber's torch to oxidize the surface will work. Almost nothing will stick to oxidized chromium heat treat foil. I have quite literally pour molten brass onto a piece of oxidized HT foils and not had it stick. Molten brass will stick to darn near anything.

 

As for the TiO2, it was my understanding that Ti is terribly reluctant to weld to anything. It's the Ti that inhibits the weld, the other stuff just provides lube for removal of the crushed can. I think the operative clause is "good weld". Yes stuff or scale or debris will bugger a weld, but not completely inhibit welding.

Edited February 16 by Joshua States

[Joshua States 1,716]

Also for those of you who like to collect scraps of non-ferrous materials in hopes of re-melting them into usable pieces, or even creating your own alloys, I have built an open top steel box, lined it with HT foil, and loaded it with chunks of nickel-silver, brass, copper, etc. and melted it into an alloy bar. The HT foil doesn't stick and the temp required to melt the non-F stock is much lower than anything near what you need to melt the foil.

[Alan Longmire 2,714]

5 minutes ago, Joshua States said:

Also for those of you who like to collect scraps of non-ferrous materials in hopes of re-melting them into usable pieces, or even creating your own alloys, I have built an open top steel box, lined it with HT foil, and loaded it with chunks of nickel-silver, brass, copper, etc. and melted it into an alloy bar. The HT foil doesn't stick and the temp required to melt the non-F stock is much lower than anything near what you need to melt the foil.

 

Now that's a neat-o trick!  

[Jerrod Miller 443]

1 hour ago, Joshua States said:

Also for those of you who like to collect scraps of non-ferrous materials in hopes of re-melting them into usable pieces, or even creating your own alloys, I have built an open top steel box, lined it with HT foil, and loaded it with chunks of nickel-silver, brass, copper, etc. and melted it into an alloy bar. The HT foil doesn't stick and the temp required to melt the non-F stock is much lower than anything near what you need to melt the foil.

 

That sounds like a fun WIP type post for the non-ferrous sub forum.  I know I would like to see any cool tips for getting the foil to line the steel box without getting gaps or folds that make things awkward, as I would totally not do it well.  

[Joshua States 1,716]

3 hours ago, Jerrod Miller said:

I know I would like to see any cool tips for getting the foil to line the steel box without getting gaps or folds that make things awkward,

First off, you aren't going to get anything with nice clean cut corners. You are casting a bar of alloy That you will cut up, melt in a crucible with a torch and pour into plate molds. But if you are particular about getting something better than a misshapen blob, fold the foil first and build the box around it.

 

 

[Joshua States 1,716]

4 hours ago, Jerrod Miller said:

That sounds like a fun WIP type post for the non-ferrous sub forum.

Ask and you shall receive
Using scraps of stuff - Non-Ferrous: fittings, alloys, patinas - Bladesmith's Forum Board

 

[Jerrod Miller 443]

6 minutes ago, Joshua States said:

Ask and you shall receive
Using scraps of stuff - Non-Ferrous: fittings, alloys, patinas - Bladesmith's Forum Board

 

I was commenting over there when you posted this.  Thanks!  

[Jay Von Ahsen 0]

On 2/15/2021 at 4:01 PM, Geoff Keyes said:

Please don't mock me!  I'm very fragile.  Ok, Ok!  I'll do it.  I've got a bunch of damascus to do in the coming weeks, I'll do the experiment.  I wonder if you could do a round tube can with a cardboard tube liner, hummmm.

 

G

TPD?

[Geoff Keyes 518]

Exactly

 

g