The great newbie grinder debate...

[deker]

First off I'd like to say "Hi!" as I've just recently found these forums.

 

I'm a hobby blacksmith/aspiring bladesmith who will be building a shop soon (just bought a new house and have a bit of space this time). I've still got a way to go, but I'm trying to decide on some tooling early enough to do budgeting.

 

I've been looking around and reading a lot and have decided that I'd like a 2x72 grinder (for a variety of reasons including availability and variety of belts, longer life of belts, etc). I've narrowed my options down, but I'm looking for some experiences from folks with more experience than myself with these machines. The options I'm looking at are:

 

- Grizzly 1015 (lower price than many, not as versitile as some)

- Coote (Looks like a nice compromise of price/quality, but some bits don't make sense to me...more on this later)

- Used Wilton Square Wheel (have a possible line on one for $750)

 

My questions on the Coote are:

 

- The Coote website says "Worktable tilts 0 to 45 degrees.". Is 0 degrees 90 degrees to the platen? The pics of this don't make it clear. I want to make sure I can have a the rest at 90 degrees to the platen.

- It looks like the grinding wheel is pretty much a single size per grinder. I note the "roller" accessory that's available that seems to allow for smaller wheels to be used, but it looks like I'd have to work up in the air to use it. How's that bit work?

 

The Square Wheel in question I've actually used (it's owned currently by one of the guys who taught a recent knifemaking class I took...He's looking to upgrade to a Bader). It's a nice machine, but even at half off at the high side of my scale. I'm wondering though if I should just bite the bullet and spend the extra $100-200 over something else now to avoid a lot more spent later when I want one anyways It also has the smaller (slower) drive pulley, a serrated grinding wheel, and the small wheel assy. which adds loads of versitility.... It does need a little touch up (set screw hole on drive pulley needs to be enlarged/re-tapped, and it's missing a hinge pin on a guard...nothing major)

 

I'm also up for any other suggestions of grinders in this general price range. I'm looking to get the most versitility possible for my investment.

 

So, who's got what experiences with which of these grinders? Can I go wrong with any of them? Is anything here head and shoulders the best deal? Anything I missed?

 

Thanks,

 

-d

[dragoncutlery]

i am not familer with the coot but the grizzly is ok if you run it with pullys as aposed to of a moter direct that way you can up the speeds with belts and pullys but if i could aford the wilton i would go with that as it has the small wheel and other acsesorys avalible for it and will even used probubly out last the grizzly

[DGentile]

The wilton is a good machine...

for 750 $ if the condition is ok, you can't go wrong.

 

the cootes have a good reputation and you get what you pay for... many makers use them and I have not heard something bad about them.

 

no idea about the grizzly...

 

However, I might add.. that if you're willing to spend 750$ you maybe should considering to save just a bit more and get a KMG

http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/grinder.html

The grinders Rob makes are excellent. The best stuff I've seen and used so far.

Got the 10" package with some addons, and it performs so well I hardly can believe I could work without it that long

 

For me the two most important things about a grinder are 1. Precision Technique & 2. Power.

Power depends on your motor... if you can chose the motor on your own, you're free to go with whatever you need.

Precision tracking... either the machine got it or it doesn't ... usually it's not easy to fix this if the tracking does a poor job. Without precise belt tracking many tasks done on the beltgrinder will be difficult (especially rounded plunge-cuts).

 

Usually the wiltons have a fairly precise tracking system, which works well.

the KMGs are top too...

don't know about the grizzly nor the coote...

 

 

daniel

[B. Norris]

Hi. Welcome to the Forum! I have not used either the Coote or the Square Wheel but, I do own a Grizzly. The Grizzly is a very solid machine and for the money is a deal. I could not afford anything more so the Grizzly was the only option for me. That being said, it also has limitations.

 

These are some of the limitations that I run up against:

1) Small radiuses cannot be worked on the Grizzly, there is no small wheel attachment available for it, if I want one I have to design and build it myself.

2) The speed is not variable, if it had slower speeds I would have more control for fine work and could also use the grinder on wood.

3) The Grizzly comes with an 8" contact wheel that does not adequately clear the motor housing, if attached directly (as mine is). The end result is that I can hollow grind one side of a blade but end up tipping the other side and gouging the blade with the edge of the belt. A larger contact wheel would solve this and would change the radius of my grinds. Pulleys would fix this if they allowed enough clearance.

4) The tool rest that came with my machine is inadequate, should you wish to use a tool rest you will have to come up with one and a better way to attach it.

 

Some advantages are:

1) I paid less than $300 for mine, including shipping.

2) The motor is a buffer motor with a shaft on either side, one for the grinder and one for whatever I want. I use it for buffing but, could rig up a disc sander if I wanted... Or I could rig up some lapidary equipment, saw and so forth... Maybe an abrasive cutoff blade for breaking down stock.

3) There is plenty of adjustment for belt length. I have not tried but I suspect I could run much shorter or longer belts.

 

In short, if you are up to the task of making modifications and do not mind the time spent to do so, the Grizzly will work for you. However, an initial investment of three or four times more will provide you, instantly, with a machine that will do more. I like the KMG and am making do with what I have now until I can afford one.

[deker]

The wilton is a good machine...

for 750 $ if the condition is ok, you can't go wrong.

 

the cootes have a good reputation and you get what you pay for... many makers use them and I have not heard something bad about them.

 

no idea about the grizzly...

 

However, I might add.. that if you're willing to spend 750$  you maybe should considering to save just a bit more and get a KMG

http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/grinder.html

The grinders Rob makes are excellent. The best stuff I've seen and used so far.

Got the 10" package with some addons, and it performs so well I hardly can believe I could work without it that long

 

37618[/snapback]

 

I looked at the KMG when I hit the $700 or so price range...Problem is that after I add a motor, and extra attachments, I'm easily over $1k...

 

I've been doing some thinking and will likely call and see if the Wilton is still available...failing that, I'll be back to square one...I'm mostly trying to maximize my dollars since I'm building out a whole shop (also buying forge, anvil, drill press, etc) and I honestly don't have the free time to build all of them...

 

Still looking for any experiences w/ the Coote grinders tho....somebody speak up!

 

thanks,

 

-d

[DGentile]

Still looking for any experiences w/ the Coote grinders tho....somebody speak up!

 

thanks,

 

-d

37650[/snapback]

 

Well If my memory serves me well, on bladeforums there are a good number of threads relating to the quality of the Coote... you maybe want to try the forum search there....

 

I understand well what you're thinking about...

outfitting a whole shop costs a hell lot of cash, not to mention time.

 

I believe it's always important to keep in mind, that if you do it right you can still earn some cash with that "hobby" or profession, thus for example, get a "good" working solution, and save some bucks for the more professional machine later.

 

For that I guess neither the coote nor the grizzly would be a bad choice.

 

Consider that much depends as well on your experience... if you before have worked with tools like "bader", Burr King, Kmg, Wilton... well you're hopelessly spoiled and will find anyhting less quite some hassle.

if on the opposite you before did not use any such "top" tool, you will yourself feel right home with anything a little less "pro".

I know quite a few guys who (myself included ) started with VERY CRAPPY Grinders... for example the one I had for about 6 years, did cost me 250$ was as unprecise as they can get, could be stopped down with a little pressure, had a platen which was only workable on one side (however I modified that soon). and used belts, way too short, but still it got me started... when I then switched to the KMG I was in grinders-heaven (still am), believe me.

it was like heaven and hell.

If I would have to change back now, I'd be fairly much "annoyed".

 

 

Daniel

[Ron Hicks]

KMG

 

Is the grinder I want - If I were you I would save a few more $ and get the KMG.

I got in a hurry wish now I had save my $.

Ron

[DGentile]

KMG

 

Is the grinder I want - If I were you I would save a few more $ and get the KMG.

I got in a hurry wish now I had save my $.

Ron

37680[/snapback]

 

Ron,

 

when I was shopping for a new grinder I actually did not have too much cash to spend either... so I thought long about the "coote", and a few other machines I could have found "locally" (so as to save transport and import duty taxes).

but then I thought well I'm in to spend arround 600-800 US at least... so why not plunder my whole account and get the KMG. it was well worth it.

but as I've said before, no need to get it as a first grinder, why not make some money firsthand, sell some knives and buy a better grinder when one is ready for this.

so don't be "down" about your choice... I bet sooner or a bit later, should you really want, you'll be able to afford another grinder.

 

dan

[dragoncutlery]

b norris um why havent you adapted it to pullys yet it shouldnt be hard and if you need parts serpulssuply has berings cheep and pullye and belts can be got at auto parts storesif needed and you can use the same moter to drive it my drive belt on my grinder is like 17 inches over all wich puts the moter almost up front enought to use a duble shaft as a buffer if i had one (and didnt alredy have a buffer) if want any help send me a photo of your layout and ill make sujestions lets get your grinding experiance up to par

[R.H.Graham]

Dragoncutlery... the Grizzly belt-grinder is attactched directly to the motor housing and uses the motor shaft itself to mount the contact wheel, as such it's not suitable to convert to a pully drive, although the parts from the machine could certainly be used to built a new set-up.

By the way, Grizzly now sells a 10 inch contact wheel for that machine, to get the wheel surface out beyond the housing a little. Pretty awesome price for a 10 inch wheel too.

 

The Grizzly is an ok machine, so is the Coote, both would serve the purpose fine.

In the end, it's more the operator than the machine, if one of them is what you can get, than you'll get good at making use of them from nessecity.

 

If you *can* still get the square-wheel, you should. It's a great machine, that's a pretty good price.

 

The coote, although it's more versatile than the grizzly for drive options, is pretty much the same configuration and has the same limitations with regards to wheel selection.

It's the same type I used for about 15 years before I got a KMG, it'll do the job.

[deker]

Thanks for all the replies folks.

 

I am trying to get in touch with the gentleman who had the Squre Wheel for sale...we'll see if he still does. I did get a chance for a couple of days to use this particular Wilton at a knifemaking class held by my local blacksmith guild and it sure was nice...

 

If he's already sold it I'll have to figure out what I really want to do. I'm JUST setting up my shop, and this will be a first grinder for me, but I can already see myself using it for almost everything. I definitely don't want to cheap-out on my most used tools (anvil, grinder, drill press, forge firepot) in the shop. I learned early that if you go cheap on stuff you use hard you'll just end up with a bunch of cheap, broken junk.

 

That being said, I still dont know if I NEED a Cadillac grinder yet. I have far too much skill to develop before I'll be making the most of whatever I end up with. It sure is nice to learn with good equipment though. If nothing else I know that I only have myself to blame for any screw ups...I can never "blame the tool"

 

I'm probably getting a little ahead of myself here as I don't even have the workshop building decided on yet, but I can set up a small temporary shop in the current garage for now to do non-forging bits of work until the new building goes up. Thankfully I have a few places I can go to forge every once in a while so I can get some pieces started and do all of my grinding, etc at home in between forge trips. I suppose this gives me a good excuse to get a small oxy setup at home so I can heat treat before I get the forge built

 

Isn't rationalizing tool purchases great?

 

Thanks again folks, I'll let you know how it turns out...

 

-d

[yblood187]

Deker,

Like you I'm just starting out, and started on a very small budget. I went with the grizz. with the 10" wheel, and had never used anything else to have that to compare with. I have since used some more expensive grinders to have some basis of comparison. But I have found that you can teach yourself whatever techniques necessary to make the most of what you've got at the time. The grizz. is built like a tank. And not bad for the price. I might be selling it BTW... It's less than a year old...

 

I have since started putting together a KMG one piece at a time... Basic set-up with just a flat platen first, then a speed control just like Rob sells with his for about $395, and a used 2hp. motor off of Ebay less than $50. As a matter of fact, I'll be running the 220v line out in my shop this week when I get in from offshore. I have about $1000 in it altogether, but it was stretched out over about 5mo, and I had the grizz to use in the interm.

 

You know you get what you pay for, and if you shell a little bit more out for good stuff it'll last and a lot of that stuff will continue to keeps it's resale value.

 

Best of luck in whatever you decide.

Randall

[Protactical]

The KMG design came from Bladeforums. And number of people have built them from scratch. It is an easy project, given that I already have one I bought in the shop... Rob will set you up with parts

 

When setting up a shop, I think it is always a good idea to devide the tools you spend the money on from those you don't. I have had great luck from my cheapo grizzly drill press bought it about 20 years ago. It seems accurate enough for what I do. (I managed to make my owm KMG accessory arms for my machine with the drill press alone saving about 40 a piece plus shipping. I think the Hybrid burners were cheaper to buy, than to build, and it is a part that one wants right the first time, again, now that I have it would be easy though not all that cheap to copy (I pledged not to though). But the forge enclosure doesn't require that kind of care.

 

Anyway, I think the grinder is THE TOOL, like a jointer or table saw in a workshop, no place to scrimp. You don't have to buy one. But I would say however you do it get a real one. It instantly changes everything, even compared to the beginer models, then you are hungering after detail wheels (made my attachemnt) or a moving platen, but your stuck with a lessor machine.

[J.Arthur Loose]

Oh, I do all my grinding on a Coote. I find it very workable, and I only have a 1 HP motor on it. A 1 1/2 or 2 would be nicer, but in over four years of using it, the 1 HP hasn't been such a problem that I've gotten around to upgrading.

 

The table adjusts from 90 to the belt down to about 45 to the belt. I rarely change it, in fact, I use the table itself about 25% of the time, preferring to hold the blade on the platen w/o the table for a better feel.

 

You can adjust the wheel size by buying the largest one (10") and then buying the other wheel size & drilling new holes in the back arm to adjust for the belt slack. I only have the 10" and don't see a real need to grind a smaller radius.

 

The one thing I'd like to do is come up with a system for mounting a 1" wheel on the front. I'm sure it can be done, but it's going to take some machining.

 

Anyway, for $410 plus another $100 for a good new motor it's a pretty good value.

[cwp]

Deker,

 

I have a Grizzly and a KMG on the way. I went to a class in November and used a Wilton and a KMG. When you look at the KMG, it is $715 for the basic unit, and then the cost of the motor. I found a 1.5 hp 180V DC motor and controller for $100 on e-bay. This one was installed in a clean room in 2001 or 2002 and removed this year. So I am up to $815 + shipping.

 

For the Grizzly, you are at $355 for the grinder and $65 for the 10" wheel. for $400+ and shipping. I know as you add things to the KMG, the price goes up, but that is true anywhere.

 

If you have used the Wilton square wheel, you will be very dissappointed in the Grizzly. Mine started to piss me off when I got back from class, because after using a good grinder, I realized the mistakes aren't all do to me. I know I can do better, because I did on the better grinder. When you get a blade close to done, and the belt jumps on you (it does on the grizzly), you tend to start getting irritated. Before you use one of the better ones, you think it is you.

 

My opinion is get one of the better ones. I liked the KMG best, and have ordered it. The 1.5 hp might not be the best for me, but the price was good, and the controller will handle 2hp so I can watch for a good 2hp later. Also, unless you are fixed on hollow grinding, start with the basic grinder (maybe upgrade the top wheel to rubber, so you can profile with it) and buy the accessories as you need them.

 

--Carl

[Ted Banning]

I've got a Grizzly ,a Kalamazoo, and a few handmade grinders too. With the Grizz it helps to mount the base to a vertical surface so the base swings out of the way. I agree on the problem with the speed of the grizz....both the sander and the buffer ends could do better at twice the speed. As a matter of use the Kalamazoo gets more because it takes 2x48 belts which are cut from 6x48 belts from sears. They don't perform quite as well as a 2x72 but they're cheaper and more readily available. Some of my machines will now take both sizes (after a little surgery) and that is a great feature. There are a lot more options for types of belts in 2x72. If you're a hobbyist you can probably wait a few days for 2x72 belts but if you have deadlines it's nice to be able to go down the street and resupply.