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New quench tank for #50


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Good morning all!

       So I am upgrading from canola oil to Parks #50 quench oil. What’s the knives I’ve made over the last four years have been made from leaf springs. I have more recently purchased some 1080,  1084 and 15N20. 
        Some of the reading I have seen implied that I should not be quenching the leaf spring steel in the Parks. So I’d like to keep my existing quench tank set up with canola oil. It’s a ammo can that holds about 3 gallons of oil.
       Most of my knives are single edged hunting type Knives with 3”-7” long blades that are about 1/8”-3/16” at the spine. Normally I do a horizontal quench. I would say that I’ve seen a little bit more warping than I would like, most of it pretty minimal but still there. When I quench I plunge the knife in horizontally edge first and move it up and down. 
       So looking for a new quench tank to store the parks in. I’ve read a lot on the forum related to horizontal or vertical quench. Should I look for a larger container for my parks that would allow a vertical quench? Or go with a ammo can the same size as my existing and continue with horizontal quench? 

       Thanks all

Aaron 

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Posted (edited)

I made mine from an old, un used 1/4 sized oxygen tank from a torch rig.

 

Removed the valve after leaving it open for several days. Then filled it with water, poured it out before cutting the top off with a cutoff wheel.

 

It gives me a 6" diameter by 24" or so vertical depth.

 

I welded on legs, and handles to stabilize and move it.

Edited by Welsh joel
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It's worth noting that there's no need to use Parks 50 with any of the steels you've mentioned, and all of them will probably benefit from a slower quench like canola.

Parks is more useful for low alloy steels like 1095/1075/W1/W2/White Paper Steel, and lower hardenability steels like 1040-1050...

Jake Cleland - Skye Knives

www.knifemaker.co.uk

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

 

Albert Einstein

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Posted (edited)

 Really Jake? I was under the impression that parks would give me a little better hardness with the 1080, 1084 and 15N20.  
     Obviously my desire is to turn out the best knife I possibly can with my equipment and my skills. 
     So maybe some feed back on weather Parks is going to benefit me with those steel?  Then weather I should look into a vertical tank vers horizontal? 
    

Edited by Aaron Gouge
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Thanks Christopher and Gerald for chiming in.
     So I guess I’m a bit confused. Aldo’s, NJSB, Ed Cafrey and many other smiths use/recommend  Parks 50 for 1080, 1084 and 15N20. I also know quite a few smiths just use the warm canola for these metals. As I have been doing. 
     I guess is Parks 50 going to give me any advantages over the warm canola?

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9 minutes ago, Aaron Gouge said:

I guess is Parks 50 going to give me any advantages over the warm canola?

Only in that it is more likely to be repeatable over time and not go rancid.  One could also potentially eliminate having canola oil in their shop and just use the one oil (#50), depending on the alloys they like to use.  You always want to quench as slowly as possible and still meet your goals.  If you can beat the nose of the TTT with a slower oil you should absolutely use that slower oil.  

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9 minutes ago, Jerrod Miller said:

Only in that it is more likely to be repeatable over time and not go rancid.  One could also potentially eliminate having canola oil in their shop and just use the one oil (#50), depending on the alloys they like to use.  You always want to quench as slowly as possible and still meet your goals.  If you can beat the nose of the TTT with a slower oil you should absolutely use that slower oil.  

That is helpful! Thank you. Soooooo general consensus is that the canola oil will beat the nose of the TTT  for 1080, 1084 and 15N20 if it is in good shape( not been burnt or gone rancid) Hence why it is used by so many?? 
       So Parks #50 overtime should be more consistent. It is an acceptable quenchant for the steals I’ve mentioned. More than likely used more commonly by professional full-time knife makers? 
      But my canola isn’t going to hinder my heat treat. 

3 hours ago, Welsh joel said:

I made mine from an old, un used 1/4 sized oxygen tank from a torch rig.

 

Removed the valve after leaving it open for several days. Then filled it with water, poured it out before cutting the top off with a cutoff wheel.

 

It gives me a 6" diameter by 24" or so vertical depth.

 

I welded on legs, and handles to stabilize and move it.

There is a welding supply shop in town, I might check with them and see what they have available

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The risk you run with a fast oil is that it will crack your blades. Their chemistry just isn't set up for cooling that quickly. And yeah, I've had it happen to me, enough that I'm really cautious about my quenchant nowadays.

The Tidewater Forge

Christopher Price, Bladesmith

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7 minutes ago, Gerald Boggs said:

Not trying to be argumentative, but leave me out the "general consensus"  It's just I don't know enough to have an opinion :-)  

      That’s kind of where I am at!! LOL!! I read as much as I can that is within my realm of grasping! Then I try to make the best choice I can based on research , my experience and  finances. 

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7 minutes ago, Christopher Price said:

The risk you run with a fast oil is that it will crack your blades. Their chemistry just isn't set up for cooling that quickly. And yeah, I've had it happen to me, enough that I'm really cautious about my quenchant nowadays.

      Thus far I’ve not cracked any blades in the quench. That would be frustrating!!! But I also have only been using warm canola oil.  

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15 minutes ago, Aaron Gouge said:

      Thus far I’ve not cracked any blades in the quench. That would be frustrating!!! But I also have only been using warm canola oil.  

Correct... moving to Parks with steels not set up for that quick a cooling could lead to failures. Harder steel, yes, but if it's converting faster than the alloying elements allow, it just tears itself apart.

The Tidewater Forge

Christopher Price, Bladesmith

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And if you're determined to do commercial quench oils, those steels (and leaf springs) like a medium speed one.  Parks AAA, Houghto-Quench G, Brownells tough-Quench, Texaco A, etc.  Parks 50 is a 7-second oil, the others I mention are 10 to 11 second oils.  Those are GM Quenchometer speeds and don't really translate directly to steel, but the lower the number the harsher the quench.  Canola rates a 9 on that scale, when fresh and hot. The older it gets the slower it gets, unless you get water in it.  Don't do that, BTW. ;)

 

P50 does have additives that slow the quench starting at 750F or so to cushion the shock, but with deep-hardening alloys like you want to use the damage is done on the front end.  And the insidious bit is that it doesn't usually appear as the dreaded TINK of a blade snapping in the quench.  Most of the time you don't know it until the final polish when all the little cracks show up on the surface.

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Thank you Allan and everyone else for  chiming in!! Was not really the question I had related to quench tanks but sure saved me some cabbage on oil!! I may consider some AAA in the future. 
       So to those who use canola oil how long before you switch to new? So right now I do about 15 knifes a year. Only quenching one or two at a time. I keep the oil in a ammo can where it is sealed when not in use. 
       

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3 minutes ago, Gerald Boggs said:

I see your location is Ecuador, so this might not be useful information.  Parks is expensive, you can get an 11 second quenching oil from McMaster-Carr for less then half the price.  https://www.mcmaster.com/quenching-oil/

  Hey, Gerald

      I am actually back stateside now. I’m in central Kentucky now. I just updated my profile. I will check out McMaster-Carr. 

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I'm hoping for a clarification on terminology. Some of us have used the term “Alloy” when talking about 1080 and 1084. I thought the “10” indicated plain carbon steel, with steel such as 4140 being considered alloy steels. I compared 1018 with 1084, and the only difference (according to AZoM's web site) is the amount of carbon. 15N20 having 2% nickel would put it in the alloy classification.

 

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That is one definition of alloy, but with steel, they're all considered alloys. Iron and carbon make steel, until the carbon gets over about 2.5% when it becomes cast iron.  All modern steels also contain manganese to some extent, which also makes them alloys.  1084 has quite a bit of manganese, 1018 does not.  Manganese is the major player in what makes an alloy etch dark in ferric chloride, which is why a billet of 1084/1018 will show a strong contrast. 

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To add to Alan's response:

In industry there are a few very common terms.  Carbon steel is just as Alan described.  Definitely an alloy, but generally considered very low alloy content and is its own class.  Then there is the High Strength Low Alloy (HSLA). Medium Alloy, High Alloy, Stainless, and several others.  The more niche you get in any circle of makers/users the more terms, and even shifting of boundaries of terms, you get.  In my mind I generally lump the 86XX series in with the plain carbon, because from a manufacturing standpoint in the foundry the cost of adding the 0.5% Cr and 0.5% Ni is pretty trivial; man hours in mold making, melting/pouring, and grinding dwarf the alloying elements difference.  But when dealing with other people I have to make sure I treat it differently, especially where heat treat, welding, and mechanical properties are being discussed.  

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48 minutes ago, Gerald Boggs said:

So whatever I want to say is correct because there is no common terminology :-) 

Just don't call any steel "brass", please.  

 

And since I can throw it out there in this context:  440C is not a steel, it is a specialty cast iron.  Even though it has a nominal 1.1%C.  During solidification it forms carbides straight from the liquid.  Feel free to keep calling it a steel though, because the lines are indeed blurry.  

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2 hours ago, Gerald Boggs said:

So whatever I want to say is correct because there is no common terminology :-) 

I like it!! 

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