A bit off topic, pole arm shafts

[Geoff Keyes]

I have a non-trad yari that I need to mount.  By non-trad I mean it references a yari (chisel grind, bi faced top surface and a flat, fullered bottom), but is a shape (dramatic triangular head) that I have not seen.  I'm stuck on what to use for the shaft.  What is "traditional"?  None of the online sources seem to know.  There are vague references to "ash, maybe oak" but nothing definite.  I'm betting that historical examples are thin on the ground.  People interested in such things preserved the heads and any mounts and used whatever was handy ( "This here closet pole looks good" ) when they needed to mount one for display.

What did they actually use, best guess?  And second, where should I source one?    I live way out in the left hand corner of the states, and the best place for tool handles is long gone.  Most of the hardware places sell fiberglass replacements.  I can find tool handles and hardwood dowels online, but shipping is stupid.

I would just buy a 2 x plank of something, but I'm concerned about my ability to make a round or oval shaft that doesn't look like I made it with my teeth.

Any ideas to push me along?

 

Thanks

 

Geoff

[Alan Longmire]

The only one I've ever seen in the flesh, so to speak, has what appears to be a lacquered rattan shaft bound in brass (more likely to be one of those Japanese alloys like shibuichi or something).  I have no way of knowing if that's the original, but you can get a rattan shaft from anyplace that supplies the Society for Creative Anachronism.  

 

[Gerald Boggs]

No idea, but these folks might https://naginata.org/

 

[Geoff Keyes]

Alan, that is a very nice Jumonji Yari.  I've always wondered how you forge something like that.  I'd have to guess that it's a ton of scraping and filing.  Rattan is thought.  I remember from some earlier research that often the split part of the shaft (for the tang) was reinforced with a mix of some sort of fiber wrap and asphalt, along with the metal bits.

 

g

[Don Abbott]

If you go with a board of some sort, approach it as you would square stock being forged to round.

 

You should be able to achieve a nice octagon on a table saw and then take down the corners with a spoke shave.

 

Patience, sharp tools, and knot-free wood makes round relatively easy.

 

[Carlos Lara]

If it was wood, then it was probably a Japanese white oak. That's what the Japanese use to make bokken and bo's (quarter staffs). The oak we get in the US/Canada is a but too hard/cracks too easily, and the wood is too acidic, not good for metal. The appalachian hickory is a good substitute for Japanese white oak, but it's expensive and it doesn't look the part! The heartwood is quite dark. The Japanese would often lacquer them anyway. A lot of sword forum members just use ash, it seems to be a good, relatively inexpensive alternative. 

 

Personally I would get an ash board of the right length, use a circular or table saw to cut a square rod, then use a chisel or hand plane to get it to shape, and finish with sandpaper. There's lots of lacquers you can substitute for urushi relatively inexpensively. As mentioned though, if you like the rattan look, you can just do that too!

[Carlos Lara]

I've found the trick to get hand planes to work nicely is to sharpen the blade on a stone. That gives you a nice convex edge that is ideal for shaving. Concave blade edges tend to cut deep without shaving.

Edited April 13 by Carlos Lara

[Geoff Keyes]

I've picked up some long straight grain pieces of ash from a local woodworker.  My plan is to make octagons on the table saw and then round them from there.  We'll see how it goes.  One of the pieces is big enough for some ax handle projects I've been sitting on.

It's interesting to me that this is lost/hidden knowledge.  I'm sure that in the day, when a shaft breaking at the wrong moment meant death, that there were good woods to use, and bad ones, and that someone must have been the keeper of that lore, so where is it?

 

geoff

[Alan Longmire]

I know of a few studies that identify European shaft wood types, but none on Japanese stuff.  Then again that's not my thing/area.  The funny thing with the euro studies is that for years all the scholars claimed spear and polearm shafts were ash (Fraxinus excelsior) only, no exceptions.  Archaeological evidence, however, has shown that to be complete rubbish.  The reality is they used any hardwood (and some conifers) that fit, as long as it was relatively straight grained and free of really big knots.  Ash made the best shafts, but when you need to arm a few thousand spearmen on short notice you use what you've got.  I know the Japanese are far more rigid when it comes to which wood does what, so they may have had a very specific preference.

[Carlos Lara]

Among trees in Japan, the white oak seems to have the best characteristics for a staff/spear/bokken. It's not too hard it is liable to crack, but still hard, and has a relatively flexible core. The Japanese did use other species though, probably for similar reasons to the Europeans. They seemed to also prefer cypress for tool handles, etc. and used magnolia for the scabbards of swords. Beside the properties of the wood, the symbolism of the particular tree also appeared to be important to them.

[Lee Bray]

I thought this an interesting question and posted it on a Japanese polearms FB page, having found nothing on the regular online sources.
There's also nothing in the couple of polearm books by Knutsen.
According to the Leeds museum Japanese arms curator(not directly from him, but a 'second hand' quote), he thinks polearm shafts are predominantly red oak, so, presumably, white oak also.
There are also examples of laminated bamboo, as in split and glued together, such as the old style fishing rods.

 

Historical examples are not that thin on the ground, there are plenty in Japan, it's just the question of shipping something that long, which is somewhat specialist and expensive.
There's a chap in California, Raymond Yan, who imports them and sells on ebay and FB quite frequently for a fair price.
https://www.ebay.com/str/uzunihonto

[Bill Schmalhofer]

On 4/13/2023 at 3:43 PM, Alan Longmire said:

I know of a few studies that identify European shaft wood types, but none on Japanese stuff.  Then again that's not my thing/area.  The funny thing with the euro studies is that for years all the scholars claimed spear and polearm shafts were ash (Fraxinus excelsior) only, no exceptions.  Archaeological evidence, however, has shown that to be complete rubbish.  The reality is they used any hardwood (and some conifers) that fit, as long as it was relatively straight grained and free of really big knots.  Ash made the best shafts, but when you need to arm a few thousand spearmen on short notice you use what you've got.  I know the Japanese are far more rigid when it comes to which wood does what, so they may have had a very specific preference.

So is ash preferred over hickory?

[Carlos Lara]

I have some bokken and a bo made from Hickory, which I got from Kingfisher woodworks. They are really excellent. I actually accidently struck a steel tree support pretty hard on the edge with one of the bokken, and it only got a shallow indentation. I filled the nick with sawdust and wood glue, and it's still working hard. I'm sure you'd have no trouble from a pole made from something like that. 

[Geoff Keyes]

I managed to source two pieces of american Ash, one 2x2 and one 2x3.  Straight grain with no runout, each about 10 ft long.  I should be able to get 2 nice spear shafts, plus, and and 4 or 5 axe and hatcher handles.  I also found a chunk of some sort of oak (oak is not native to the PNW) that grows in the yard.  I will probably get something out of that, if only practice with a draw knife.

 

g

[Alan Longmire]

12 hours ago, Bill Schmalhofer said:

So is ash preferred over hickory?

 

No hickory in historical Europe, it's native to North America.  Hickory does make a stronger shaft than ash, but it's also a lot heavier.  That's why baseball bats are ash or maple, but not hickory or osage orange.  That said, someone should make a hickory bat...  I bet it'd knock one over the fence every time what with the extra momentum and springiness!  But they have weight rules, so that won't happen. 

[Carlos Lara]

Imagine if there were no bat weight rules in baseball! You could fill the end of a spring steel bat with lead until it was just under too heavy to swing. I'd be scared to face off against it though! A stray ball from that would be lethal. As would a thrown bat!

[Geoff Keyes]

Just think how beautiful an Osage bat would be!

 

g

[Geoff Keyes]

I am in love with this form.  I want one in Osage.

[Jerrod Miller]

There is actually no upper limit to the weight of a bat in MLB (see rule 1.10 here or pasted below).  Lighter bats travel faster, and speed is much more important in imparting energy.  Kinetic energery = 1/2 x mass x velocity^2

 

Interestingly there is no lower limit on weight, either.  The bat just needs to be solid wood.  Of course, balsa would be light and thus fast, but would not survive the impact.  Strong enough and as light as possible is the goal.  

 

Quote

 

1.10 (a) The bat shall be a smooth, round stick not more than 2.61 inches in diameter at the thickest part and not more than 42 inches in length. The bat shall be one piece of solid wood. NOTE: No laminated or experimental bats shall be used in a professional game (either championship season or exhibition games) until the manufacturer has secured approval from the Rules Committee of his design and methods of manufacture.

(b) Cupped Bats. An indentation in the end of the bat up to one inch in depth is permitted and may be no wider than two inches and no less than one inch in diameter. The indentation must be free of right angles and may not contain any foreign substance.

(c) The bat handle, for not more than 18 inches from its end, may be covered or treated with any material or substance to improve the grip. Any such material or substance that extends past the 18-inch limitation shall cause the bat to be removed from the game.

NOTE: If the umpire discovers that the bat does not conform to (c) above until a time during or after which the bat has been used in play, it shall not be grounds for declaring the batter out, or ejected from the game.

Rule 1.10(c) Comment: If pine tar extends past the 18-inch limitation, then the umpire, on his own initiative or if alerted by the opposing team, shall order the batter to use a different bat. The batter may use the bat later in the game only if the excess substance is removed. If no objections are raised prior to a bat’s use, then a violation of Rule 1.10(c) on that play does not nullify any action or play on the field and no protests of such play shall be allowed.

(d) No colored bat may be used in a professional game unless approved by the Rules Committee.

 

 

[Alan Longmire]

Ah, so that's why both corked and leaded bats are illegal!  I was told it was a weight thing back in little league, the last time I played baseball.  I guess that's also a reason MLB doesn't allow aluminum bats, it's not just the "clonk" noise. 

[Charles dP]

On 4/20/2023 at 6:32 PM, Geoff Keyes said:

I am in love with this form.  I want one in Osage.

Now THAT I’d like to see in a baseball game 

[Geoff Keyes]

I think they call that game Bonk Stick.  It's different from baseball.  Not less entertaining, just different.

 

g

[Alan Longmire]

Just for the record, here's one of the articles I mentioned a couple of weeks ago. Found it looking for something else...

 

 

The_wood_of_Merovingian_weaponry.pdf

[Geoff Keyes]

Thank you, Alan

 

g

[Joshua States]

I remember that article now. Ash and hazel for spears, Alder for almost everything else!