A few questions about using water buffalo horn

[John Carey]

Hello  first off thank you for adding me. 

I am planning on using buffalo horn for a ferrule for a knife I am about to make and have never actually used it. Now will the sides with ever be as polished as the face? I test cut a sliver off to see how well it can be machined and that left a pretty reasonable face to start with, as shown in the pictures.

I read slow and steady wins the race with horn as heat will warp it. I have no qualms with hand sanding as I am going to be doing a Kijiro Urushi lacquer finish on the wood part of the handle and saya(sheath) 

Now should I leave the back a  bit rough or smoother the better when epoxying it to the wood components? If possible I am going to hollow it out with a down cut spiral router bit so I can make a cap for the ferrule and opening for the sheath. 

also if this is the wrong section I appologize in advance. Any and all info will be very much appreciated. I thank you for your time

[Alan Longmire]

13 hours ago, John Carey said:

Now should I leave the back a  bit rough or smoother the better when epoxying it to the wood components?

 

Leave it as rough as you can.  Most adhesives don't stick to horn very well, and anything you can do to increase surface area will help.  Using organic glues that do stick to horn is also a good idea.  Either hide glue or casein-based glues.   When you hollow out the back, be very careful not to let the bit grab.  I'd use a Forstner bit rather than a router.  

 

And welcome aboard!

[John Carey]

4 hours ago, Alan Longmire said:

 

Leave it as rough as you can.  Most adhesives don't stick to horn very well, and anything you can do to increase surface area will help.  Using organic glues that do stick to horn is also a good idea.  Either hide glue or casein-based glues.   When you hollow out the back, be very careful not to let the bit grab.  I'd use a Forstner bit rather than a router.  

 

And welcome aboard!

Thank you for the advise it is very helpful. Do you have any recommendations for what type of casein-based glue? Don't have a pot to melt and make hide glue ATM. 

[Alan Longmire]

I just use dry hide glue flakes.  You don't need a traditional glue pot either.  For small batches just use an insulated coffee mug and hot water.  That works really well for tiny batches.  Keep some hot water on hand and it'll be fine. 

[John Carey]

Hot like straight from the tap? Would think it would be a bit hotter than that to dissolve the material. Speaking from speculation never used it before. 

[Joshua States]

On 5/31/2023 at 6:45 PM, John Carey said:

Now will the sides with ever be as polished as the face?

Yes the sides can be polished as smooth and shiny as the face. It does take a bit of work. I haven't used it in many years, but this is a spacer I made in a Bowie from 2008-ish.

 

Edited June 2 by Joshua States

[John Carey]

1 hour ago, Joshua States said:

Yes the sides can be polished as smooth and shiny as the face. It does take a bit of work. I haven't used it in many years, but this is a spacer I made in a Bowie from 2008-ish.

 

That is very nice piece of craftmanship, well done. I have no qualms hand sanding as I will be doing a lot of it with this build as I am going to be using Kijiro urushi lacquer as a finish to go with the Rambutan(lychee) or Wenge wood body and sheath. I am not sure if your familiar with using urushi but it is a labor of love but a beautiful finish it is what I used on this bocote saya (sheath). Wet sanded up to 1200 did 6 coats and with each coat you add a grit and drop the previous one ended up at 22k  It was my first ever sheath and I am happy with what I ended up with. 

Edited June 2 by John Carey

[Alan Longmire]

11 hours ago, John Carey said:

Hot like straight from the tap? Would think it would be a bit hotter than that to dissolve the material. Speaking from speculation never used it before. 

 

Hotter than that, yes.  Just off the boil, say 190 F.  Stir in as much glue flakes as will dissolve, use within five minutes.  

 

To polish horn, wet-sanding up to 1500 is really all you need, but if you have a buffing wheel you can wet sand to 600 and buff.

[John Carey]

2 hours ago, Alan Longmire said:

 

Hotter than that, yes.  Just off the boil, say 190 F.  Stir in as much glue flakes as will dissolve, use within five minutes.  

 

To polish horn, wet-sanding up to 1500 is really all you need, but if you have a buffing wheel you can wet sand to 600 and buff.

Is hide glue going to be a good choice for a outdoor/field type knife? I read if it gets wet can weaken and make the connection come lose. Now I am in no way going to be swimming or soaking the blade in water as it is Shirogami #2 (white/blank paper steel) carbon steels and water are not the best of friends at times lol. 

I also noticed it comes in different gram strength the higher the gram the faster the set if I read and understand correctly. Would you recommend 192, 251 or 315 gram weight? 
Again you all have been of a very great help to me. 

[Carlos Lara]

Yes, it's a good choice for an outdoor/field type knife. We don't use hide glue anymore much, so most people are no longer aware of its characteristics. It softens to water, but it takes a really long time. It's not very porous, so water doesn't really seep in. The bond to wood, horn, leather is super strong. You'd think it rusts metal, but the collagen matrix it creates holds water in it so effectively, it doesn't really rust at all. Imve had multiple experiences now with hide glue on untreated steel, and it probably prevents rust more than anything. With a narrow seam, it's going to be a real struggle if you even want to get it apart again. It doesn't bond metal well, but if you get it into a hole in the tang, it will hold on for dear life. I have found surfacing the tang with a file also helps the hide glue hold. All that being said, don't soak it or leave it in standing water (like in a sink), that will probably compromise the glue eventually. Otherwise I think you'll be surprised how strong it is.

 

Hide glue works best with long cure times. Even if it has set, I would still give it 24 hours to fully cure, for maximum strength. I find the hold is the best if you leave it clamped at least until it sets, preferably until it's fully cured. The glue I use tends to be soft when its first set, but after 24 hours it gets hard as resin. You don't want it to set or cure too fast, because that makes it hard to work with. It's tricky to get the hang of it, but once you've worked with it for a bit, you find it's more forgiving and useful than it seems.

Edited June 2 by Carlos Lara

[Alan Longmire]

That's been my observation as well.  I use it as the sole glue for leather-covered wooden handle and scabbard cores  (no sewing), and once it's set and the leather is oiled or waxed, it's basically permanent.  If it was good enough for Stradivari to use on his violins, it's good enough for me. 

 

The only variety I've used is Behlen 192-gram dry flake, because that's all I could find when I wanted some.

 

Carpenters and luthiers use a heated pot because they work with large quantities, and as long as you keep it hot (130F - 190F) and moist it won't start to set.  I've done a longsword handle and scabbard just using an insulated cup.  With the water hot, just stir in dry glue until it's the consistency you want, use, and rinse.  Only takes a couple tablespoons of dry glue in about a cup of water to do a handle and scabbard.  I like it thick enough it's  not runny, but not so thick it's gummy.

[John Carey]

4 hours ago, Carlos Lara said:

Yes, it's a good choice for an outdoor/field type knife. We don't use hide glue anymore much, so most people are no longer aware of its characteristics. It softens to water, but it takes a really long time. It's not very porous, so water doesn't really seep in. The bond to wood, horn, leather is super strong. You'd think it rusts metal, but the collagen matrix it creates holds water in it so effectively, it doesn't really rust at all. Imve had multiple experiences now with hide glue on untreated steel, and it probably prevents rust more than anything. With a narrow seam, it's going to be a real struggle if you even want to get it apart again. It doesn't bond metal well, but if you get it into a hole in the tang, it will hold on for dear life. I have found surfacing the tang with a file also helps the hide glue hold. All that being said, don't soak it or leave it in standing water (like in a sink), that will probably compromise the glue eventually. Otherwise I think you'll be surprised how strong it is.

 

Hide glue works best with long cure times. Even if it has set, I would still give it 24 hours to fully cure, for maximum strength. I find the hold is the best if you leave it clamped at least until it sets, preferably until it's fully cured. The glue I use tends to be soft when its first set, but after 24 hours it gets hard as resin. You don't want it to set or cure too fast, because that makes it hard to work with. It's tricky to get the hang of it, but once you've worked with it for a bit, you find it's more forgiving and useful than it seems.

That is very good info to know I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I have no intentions of going swimming or soaking the knife in water after it is built. Yet when outdoors can get a caught in a rain shower out of the blue so why I asked about it weakening from what is all.  I am a patient individual by nature so I have no qualms leaving it clamped till the glue is totally cured. It seems all the things I seem to like are a time consuming affair as of late lol

4 hours ago, Alan Longmire said:

That's been my observation as well.  I use it as the sole glue for leather-covered wooden handle and scabbard cores  (no sewing), and once it's set and the leather is oiled or waxed, it's basically permanent.  If it was good enough for Stradivari to use on his violins, it's good enough for me. 

 

The only variety I've used is Behlen 192-gram dry flake, because that's all I could find when I wanted some.

 

Carpenters and luthiers use a heated pot because they work with large quantities, and as long as you keep it hot (130F - 190F) and moist it won't start to set.  I've done a longsword handle and scabbard just using an insulated cup.  With the water hot, just stir in dry glue until it's the consistency you want, use, and rinse.  Only takes a couple tablespoons of dry glue in about a cup of water to do a handle and scabbard.  I like it thick enough it's  not runny, but not so thick it's gummy.

I like to hear that it bonds leather to wood. Be helpful if my Japanese style frog holster? doesn't exactly pan out like I hope

The behlen 192 seems to be out of stock with a quick search every where that I have seen so far. So 192 gram would be the appropriate strength ratio you would suggest using I take it? 

[Alan Longmire]

11 minutes ago, John Carey said:

So 192 gram would be the appropriate strength ratio you would suggest using I take it? 

 

Dunno, like I said it's all I've used.  I'm totally happy with it, though.  

[John Carey]

8 minutes ago, Alan Longmire said:

 

Dunno, like I said it's all I've used.  I'm totally happy with it, though.  

Don't fix what's not broke and working 

[Carlos Lara]

I'd go with the 192. Gives you the most time to work with it. There's nothing more frustrating than hide glue setting too fast!

[John Carey]

10 hours ago, Carlos Lara said:

I'd go with the 192. Gives you the most time to work with it. There's nothing more frustrating than hide glue setting too fast!

Thank you, From what I have read the higher the gram count the faster the set so a bit more working time would be ideal. Would you happen to have any recommendations for what brand of hide glue granules/flakes to use? The Behlen 192 seems to be out of stock. 

[Carlos Lara]

I buy all my hide glue from Lee Valley in Canada, and I get the pearl form:

 

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/supplies/adhesives/glue/113546-antique-restorers-pearl-veneer-hide-glue?item=56K5005

 

I guess it's the 150g strength. It's plenty strong though, particularly if you use a lot. I've only had hide glue bonds come apart if not enough glue was used, if it was a material that doesn't bond it well like steel, or if it didn't penetrate on the surface. On my katana and wakizashi the kurikata came off. I glued them back on with hide glue, and now they're stuck for dear life. They were originally glued with hide glue, but not enough. 

Edited June 3 by Carlos Lara