Metal Fume Fever

[Carlos Lara]

So Sunday I had my first experience casting bronze. It was a custom copper/tin mix, using copper from copper pipes and tin that I ordered that was relatively pure. I have a P100 respirator, but I foolishly didn't use it for the casting! Two days ago, I did some grinding and polishing up of the copper, with the P100 respirator, and yesterday I mainly was just vacuuming up the bronze dust, also with the respirator. Then last night, an hour or two after I finished cleaning up, I got a fever that lasted through the night. I didn't have any other symptoms, so I don't think I got sick from something else. I read up on metal fume fever, and I read it usually starts 2-10 hours after exposure. Today I'm feeling better, but I'm wondering if that's what happened. I'm having trouble finding anything online specifically about copper or tin, but I believe copper can cause it. Has anyone else experienced metal fume fever? Do I need a better respirator? I'm also wondering if it is a coating on the pipe or an impurity of some kind that caused it. I have also just read that vacuuming up bronze dust isn't a good idea! So I'll definitely have to be more careful in the future. Sweeping only from now on!

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

11 hours ago, Carlos Lara said:

So Sunday I had my first experience casting bronze. It was a custom copper/tin mix, using copper from copper pipes and tin that I ordered that was relatively pure. I have a P100 respirator, but I foolishly didn't use it for the casting! Two days ago, I did some grinding and polishing up of the copper, with the P100 respirator, and yesterday I mainly was just vacuuming up the bronze dust, also with the respirator. Then last night, an hour or two after I finished cleaning up, I got a fever that lasted through the night. I didn't have any other symptoms, so I don't think I got sick from something else. I read up on metal fume fever, and I read it usually starts 2-10 hours after exposure. Today I'm feeling better, but I'm wondering if that's what happened. I'm having trouble finding anything online specifically about copper or tin, but I believe copper can cause it. Has anyone else experienced metal fume fever? Do I need a better respirator? I'm also wondering if it is a coating on the pipe or an impurity of some kind that caused it. I have also just read that vacuuming up bronze dust isn't a good idea! So I'll definitely have to be more careful in the future. Sweeping only from now on!

Metal fume fever only happens due to fumes when casting. So you won't get it from dust. And it's mostly zinc oxide that causes metal fume fever. Zinc has a low boiling point, so when melting brass, the zinc can start to boil off, creating lots of zinc oxide fumes (white smoke) that can cause zinc fume fever. Other metals can cause it too, but not copper or tin. Which is why I almost always use pure copper and tin for casting, as it's relatively safe.

 

Symptoms of metal fume fever include: "fever, chills, nausea, headache, fatigue, muscle aches, joint pains, lack of appetite, shortness of breath, pneumonia, chest pain, change in blood pressure, dizziness, and coughing. A sweet or metallic taste in the mouth may also be reported, along with a dry or irritated throat which may lead to hoarseness". So just fever and no other symptoms don't mean that it's more likely metal fume fever.

 

So IMO your fever is not related to the bronze working that you did. So it's either just a fever, or something else unrelated to the bronze itself. Carbon monoxide jumps to mind, but you'd experience that more in terms of dizziness and headache and not fever.

Edited August 2 by Jeroen Zuiderwijk

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

P.s. this is what you see when zinc is boiling when casting brass: white/yellow flame in the crucible, and smoke coming out of the crucible. If that happens outside, and you stay out of the smoke, and you don't have any lung issues, you are probably fine. But personally I rather stay away from zinc all together. No point in risking it, and I hate brass anyway. 

[Jerrod Miller]

Just to add a little to Jeroen's info:

The boiling point of zinc is higher than the liquidous of some potential brass alloys, but not many of them.  If happen to be melting, say 60% Zn, 40% Cu, you will melt at about 1535F, when the boiling point of Zn is 1665F.  You can and will still get toxic fumes.  It is the zinc oxide particulates that you don't want to be breathing in.  

[Doug Lester]

Just an aside, does metal fume fever include heavy metal poisoning that one can get from welding without a respirator or working with molten lead?

 

Doug

[Geoff Keyes]

Yes it does

 

[Jeroen Zuiderwijk]

Yep, absolutely. It's also known as welding shivers. And with lead, there is no safe threshold it is safe. Even the smallest amounts of lead can provide severe health issues.

[Gerhard Gerber]

Is this a possibility with normal arc welding?

[Alan Longmire]

Yes, if you're using a stick welder.  The shielding stuff on the outside of the electrode is a mix of stuff you don't want to be breathing when vaporized, the worst of which is manganese.  This causes similar symptoms to zinc, and if exposed often enough will result in symptoms like Parkinson's Disease. Incurably, I might add.  I always try to weld outdoors or with a good crossbreeze for that reason.  MIG welding isn't as nasty, especially if you use shielding gas rather than flux core wire.  TIG welding is the cleanest by far, but even then if you're welding stainless you may be exposed to hexavalent chromium.  

 

Pretty much any metal vapor is not good for you, and arc welding is one of the few processes we do that results in copious metal vapor.  Forges and oxy-acetylene don't get steel hot enough to vaporize, electric arcs do.  

[Gerhard Gerber]

You make me worry Alan, we've been doing a lot of welding in recent months, 99% inside the workshop with just a fan in the corner blowing towards the door.
My buddy is a much better welder than myself, and he's been a great help with the shop revamp, but if I don't have something constructive to do I'm right there holding steel in place and handing on new welding rods.
Used a friend's MIG welder recently, trying not to admit that I'm on the look-out for year-end specials, but I would have to use flux care as well.  The gas is expensive enough, but we have no option other than renting the bottles as well, just not financially doable. 
I can't afford to live too long, but I would severely resent feeling like shit for the last third.

[Alan Longmire]

As long as you don't have the welder's shakes now you're probably okay.  If you get the shakes after a day of welding, you're getting a dose for sure.  As long as it goes away by the next day, while you're still in the danger zone, hope for the best.  I only got the shakes once, and that was enough.  I was welding up a 1m x 2m fireplace screen on a cold day, and I kept the doors shut and no fan running, using old damp 6013 rods.  Damp rods (which probably aren't a big problem where you are!) make far more fumes that tend to hang around longer.  I could smell and taste metal for a couple of days after, but only had a headache and the shakes for about an hour the night after all the welding.  I'd just as soon not repeat the experience, I have a bit of tremor in my hands at the best of times, not related to metal fume, just essential tremor.  When I was about 10 years old I was told I could never be a surgeon or a pilot because my hands shake too much!  The ensuing 40-some years hasn't seen much improvement. 

 

 

[Lorne W.]

3 hours ago, Alan Longmire said:

As long as you don't have the welder's shakes now you're probably okay.  If you get the shakes after a day of welding, you're getting a dose for sure.  As long as it goes away by the next day, while you're still in the danger zone, hope for the best.  I only got the shakes once, and that was enough.  I was welding up a 1m x 2m fireplace screen on a cold day, and I kept the doors shut and no fan running, using old damp 6013 rods.  Damp rods (which probably aren't a big problem where you are!) make far more fumes that tend to hang around longer.  I could smell and taste metal for a couple of days after, but only had a headache and the shakes for about an hour the night after all the welding.  I'd just as soon not repeat the experience, I have a bit of tremor in my hands at the best of times, not related to metal fume, just essential tremor.  When I was about 10 years old I was told I could never be a surgeon or a pilot because my hands shake too much!  The ensuing 40-some years hasn't seen much improvement. 

 

 

My dads side of the family has essential tremor running down it. I have it worse than my dad, it is quite noticeable and effects my writing a fair bit. You learn to deal with it quite well, time the shake is an art lol. I am still a good shot even though I shake, all about timing!

Edited September 5 by Lorne W.

[Alan Longmire]

14 hours ago, Lorne W. said:

I am still a good shot even though I shake, all about timing!

 

I was too, until I needed bifocals.  Now I can see either the sights or the target, but not both at the same time.   Since I'm not a hunter I don't worry about it. No scopes or red dots for me, I prefer irons. 

 

14 hours ago, Lorne W. said:

effects my writing a fair bit

 

My writing was okay until arthritis set in.  Now it looks like that of a 95 year old stroke victim...  Kind of embarrassing, since I look perfectly normal (well, for a given value of normal, anyway...).  Gets me in trouble when writing checks, I can't make easily distinguishable 3s and 5s anymore.  9s are tough as well.  No fine motor skills in thumb, fore, and middle finger.  

 

As the poster says, aging is not for sissies! 

[Gerhard Gerber]

Fascinating to learn here about something like essential tremors, I have a friend from school days who's always had the shakes, doubt he even knows there's a name for it!

Fortunately I haven't had any symptoms like that, but I do worry at times when I feel so off and there's no obvious reason.
Between a not unnecessarily healthy diet and life style, with added work-induced stress and anxiety I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Recently had a prime example of why I'm worried, first session of fitting the inso wool and casting the forge we had on PPE as far as possible. 

Next session, nothing. 

I have a shirt that's ruined by the glass fiber stickles from the inso wool, 2 washes didn't get rid of it, but I'm still wearing it.  Refractory dust now seems to be a permanent part of my shop.
My friend & assistant of recent months was recently busy on my grinder with his 3rd knife, next day we went on our usual 10Km Sunday hike and he complained about the black snot still coming out.
 

1 hour ago, Alan Longmire said:

 

I was too, until I needed bifocals.  Now I can see either the sights or the target, but not both at the same time.   Since I'm not a hunter I don't worry about it. No scopes or red dots for me, I prefer irons. 

 

 

My writing was okay until arthritis set in.  Now it looks like that of a 95 year old stroke victim...  Kind of embarrassing, since I look perfectly normal (well, for a given value of normal, anyway...).  Gets me in trouble when writing checks, I can't make easily distinguishable 3s and 5s anymore.  9s are tough as well.  No fine motor skills in thumb, fore, and middle finger.  

 

As the poster says, aging is not for sissies! 

I'm not loving it, especially the eyesight bit. 

At my last eye test I was still 120% at distance, arms length I need 1X reading glasses, when I'm tired 2x.

I asked an expert about how to approach a rifle scope, his advice was set up for the reading glasses on the scope, but I can't have them on while looking for game.

[Jim White]

On 9/5/2023 at 7:22 AM, Gerhard Gerber said:

You make me worry Alan, we've been doing a lot of welding in recent months, 99% inside the workshop with just a fan in the corner blowing towards the door.
My buddy is a much better welder than myself, and he's been a great help with the shop revamp, but if I don't have something constructive to do I'm right there holding steel in place and handing on new welding rods.
Used a friend's MIG welder recently, trying not to admit that I'm on the look-out for year-end specials, but I would have to use flux care as well.  The gas is expensive enough, but we have no option other than renting the bottles as well, just not financially doable. 
I can't afford to live too long, but I would severely resent feeling like shit for the last third.

I wouldn't worry too much if I were you. I've been welding almost daily for decades and until the last decade wasn't using any type of respirator. Since you haven't been in the trade, it's doubtful anything will pop up without some other underlying condition.