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will52100

Tire hammer plans?

29 posts in this topic

I am in need of a decent hammer and seems like I'll never get a chance to work in a class on these. Anybody have plans for this hammer? Or can I just copy the linkage from a little gaint? I realy like the simplicity of the design, but don't have a lot of time to"well lets see if moving this a 1/2" this way helps" I have a mill and lathe, and will have a surface grinder before long. How dificult would it be to build?

 

Any ideas? I have a press and it's nice, but not the best for low temp forging carbon steels.

 

Was suposed to go to a workshop last year but only six people signed up and it got canncelled.

 

Help?

bsphoto239.jpg

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A buddy and I built a hammer, along the lines of a Champion. We used car leaf springs for the spring linkage. The thing I was most impressed with was the fact that it worked pretty much right from the get go. We had to tinker the foot peddle a bit, but that was it.

 

These things are not rocket science. The smiths who built them in the 19th century were good jackleg tinkerers, but not engineers. We just guessed the number of springs to use, figuring we could adjust if it didn't work, but it worked first time.

 

If you are confident of your fabrication skills, I'll bet yours will work too.

 

Good Luck

 

Geoff

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Clay Spencer, the fellow who demonstrates this design, will be doing just that at the MN Guild of Metalsmiths conference the weekend of September 15 2006. It's another option to see it done before trying it yourself.

 

www.metalsmiths.org

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Cool Mike, Thanks.

 

But what about a set of plans--since the thing doesn't appear to be "secret"? Or even better, what about making a DVD of one of these sessions and selling it?

 

John

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Cool Mike, Thanks.

 

But what about a set of plans--since the thing doesn't appear to be "secret"? Or even better, what about making a DVD of one of these sessions and selling it?

 

John

 

Looks like a Little Giant wannabe.

3/8 or 1/2 tubing for the ram..

Helper coil spring from a shock from a 4X4.

If anyone has a Little Giant, could pretty much copy the mechanism.

Only fly in the oilment I see is the ram guide..

If your industrious you could pour babbit or just do the down and dirty thing and

braze a collar of bronze sheet on the upper and lower ram guide 2" or so, to take up the slack and act as a bearing..even brass would work.

You might have to change it more often but we're smiths, we're supposed to burn things up and rebuild it....har..har.. :rolleyes:

Don' see why it would'nt work..

I love junk yard toys.. :P

 

Josh

Edited by A Flor

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The ram guids wouldn't be a problem, the one there doing at the workshops uses ultra high density polyurithane. If I build one on my own I'll use teflon, I have access to some thick pieces that I might could mill down to act as a bearing. The head is filled with lead to get the 50# wieght.

 

A DVD of one of the workshops would be great. So would a set of acurate plans.

 

They are trying to get a hammer workshop going in Jackson MS, but me and two others are the only ones interested at this time, and they need about 15 people to keep the cost down. If anybody is in the Jackson area and is interested give me an email and I'll put you intouch with the guy trying to get it going.

 

I may just have to take a tape to a little giant and see what I can come up with.

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:lol:

The ram guids wouldn't be a problem, the one there doing at the workshops uses ultra high density polyurithane. If I build one on my own I'll use teflon, I have access to some thick pieces that I might could mill down to act as a bearing. The head is filled with lead to get the 50# wieght.

 

A DVD of one of the workshops would be great. So would a set of acurate plans.

 

They are trying to get a hammer workshop going in Jackson MS, but me and two others are the only ones interested at this time, and they need about 15 people to keep the cost down. If anybody is in the Jackson area and is interested give me an email and I'll put you intouch with the guy trying to get it going.

 

I may just have to take a tape to a little giant and see what I can come up with.

 

Hi Will..

Teflon..yea....hummm... ;)

 

The toggle on the fly wheel..looks like a pillow block..maybe 1 1/4"-1 1/2"??

Mounted to some tubing cut for for the toggle arm mount.??

 

I have access to about 7 or 8 round 'bridge bearings' a fellow has up on the mountain..

Solid round about..er..4" round X - about 3'??

About 250-300 lb a piece..

Has a 1" hole cut through used for the cable for hanging a bridge..

Weld up the hole and could use for the anvil...

With 1/2" plate mount and dies, should bring it up to just about the right height.

 

How did they mount the dies?

Dovetail or bolt on?

 

The little giant linkage is ok, but this particular design may require alot of tweaking.

Also, more moving joints in the linkage. (More bends in the plumbing, easier to stop it up..)

To get around the linkage problem, I found this..

http://www.anvilfire.com/power/index.htm

It's under JY roller hammer.

Seems you could adapt the linkage and cut down alot of moving parts.

Also adjustable...

 

Whatcha think?

 

 

(I should stop now..if I don't..there will be ominous sounds, flashes and the sound of Heavy Metal rock emanating from my shop in the dark of night..)

 

Josh

Edited by A Flor

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I remember when Robert built that hammer. The roller guid is a nice idea, but I think the toggle link design has more merit. I could be wrong, I often am, but the toggle link should have a little more "snap" to it.

 

The Bridge bearing should work, may want to add a little width at the bottom, like a pyrimid to add weight though.

 

I'm not sure but I think the dies are bolt ons, but I could be wrong. If I do it I'll probably mill dovetails with a set screw.

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If I remember correctly, the Guild of Metalsmiths videos these demonstrations. I don't know if there are drawn plans. After the conference, there should be a copy of any videos in the library on the GoM website. They usually charge a small fee for the DVD.

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We had a tire hammer workshop here in Tallahassee 3 - 4 weeks ago. Ron is writing article for Clinker Breaker. Will send it when he gets it done. Clay said plans would be out 'soon'. I've only used a PH once before so I really can't compare it to anything. However I'm well pleased with it so far.

Ken

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Clay's been saying that the plans were coming for over a year now. I'm about to the point of just building something along the lines of the tire hammer with a spring set-up like was shown on the roller guid hammer.

 

I don't need step by step plans, just good acurate "blueprints" type shop drawings. As long as I know where to cut and drill I can figure out how to cut and drill.

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Clay's been saying that the plans were coming for over a year now. I'm about to the point of just building something along the lines of the tire hammer with a spring set-up like was shown on the roller guid hammer.

 

I don't need step by step plans, just good acurate "blueprints" type shop drawings. As long as I know where to cut and drill I can figure out how to cut and drill.

 

I agree.

Even if 'plans' were available, the reality is, most smiths end up using salvaged parts or what is available in their own area or redesign the gear anyway. .

Many times the parts does not meet the criteria of the plans

The plans would have to be followed exactly to get a working model.

That being said, once the theory is established, as you said it's a matter of cut and drill.

 

I just got an estimate at the locate recycle steel yard.

About $250 for the mainframe, ram, base and miscellanious pieces. This is with 3/8" tubing and 1/2" plate.

I'm taking a trip next week and round up a 'bridge bearing' (4"X3' round ) for the anvil.

Two choices one would make is..

1. Type of linkage..

The 'Little Giant' type or spring recoil like the roller hammer.

The Spring is simpler.

The 'LG' linkage with a little R&D could be made.

I don't know the advantage of either based on the weight, throw etc.

It's a gut feeling guess.

From an personal artist standpoint..(if that matters..) the LG has more..er..personality and relates to an era of mechanical devices of the turn of the century.

I know it does'nt make a difference as far as working capability is concerned, but, as I said, I'm an artist and like design as well as function.

It is also more of a challedge to build and build it correctly.

 

The question is bearing at the joints..

Trying to use off the shelf material that copies a mechanical design that is some 80 years old, will hold up over long term without the linkage flying apart and sailing across the shop is a challedge. (Igor hates flying objects.. :P )

The laboratory has been doing some R&D in that area for grins and chuckles using bronze bearing and oilers at the joints.

The linkage 'copies' the 'LG' as close to possiable using yard materials and stock.

Adjustment is using the tie rods to an old Ford.

Rather it would hold up is another question.

(Elvira said to mount it outside..she does'nt want her new craft table a victim of 'collateral damage.. :lol: )

The worse that could happen I suppose is to tear it apart and redsign.

We'll see..

 

Below are two pics.

One the LG..(natch) and the Tire Hammer.

 

Note the postiion of the linkage on the LG and position of the lower toggle arms with the ram.

 

Note top throw adjustment on LG..

I don't make one out on the Tire Hammer (photo?).

 

If anyone has ideas on the connection of the toggle arms and bearing, chime in..

 

Josh

little_giant.jpg

tire1.jpg

Edited by A Flor

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I had an email from Clay Spencer yesterday stating that he hadn't printed anything up yet and had no idea when that would happen.

What I would like to see is a schematic/blowup of the linkage/hub connections. bruce

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Irontree_JYH.jpg

I had an email from Clay Spencer yesterday stating that he hadn't printed anything up yet and had no idea when that would happen.

What I would like to see is a schematic/blowup of the linkage/hub connections. bruce

 

I saw a version of this with a Shock used in place of the linkage. Pros & Cons? Seemed like a simple replacement although I have no idea how well it might work.

Edited by Dan Fronefield

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Jock Dempsey over at Anvilfire.com used a shock absorber linkage on a hammer once upon a time. He says it's a bad idea, since the shock counteracts the ability to hit hard. In other words, the faster you spin the wheel, the more the shock tends to damp out the oscillations, giving you a "mushy" hit at much lower force than the "slingshot" acceleration provided by the spring/toggle arm linkage. I've thought about using a Champion-style leaf spring bow linkage for one of these, just to avoid any math in calculating the toggle length on the DuPont-style linkage.

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Jock Dempsey over at Anvilfire.com used a shock absorber linkage on a hammer once upon a time. He says it's a bad idea, since the shock counteracts the ability to hit hard. In other words, the faster you spin the wheel, the more the shock tends to damp out the oscillations, giving you a "mushy" hit at much lower force than the "slingshot" acceleration provided by the spring/toggle arm linkage. I've thought about using a Champion-style leaf spring bow linkage for one of these, just to avoid any math in calculating the toggle length on the DuPont-style linkage.

 

I wonder if anyone's tried a motorcycle or coil-over type shocks - say two mounted parallel to each other? Getting a pair from junked bikes should be cheap, and by using two in tandem, you might be able to compensate for the fact that they're built for lighter loads than car shocks.

 

Maybe a Mcpherson strut? You'd have both spring and dampening - although again, maybe too much mush.

 

Just brainfartstorming while waiting for software to load . . .

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Jock Dempsey over at Anvilfire.com used a shock absorber linkage on a hammer once upon a time. He says it's a bad idea, since the shock counteracts the ability to hit hard. In other words, the faster you spin the wheel, the more the shock tends to damp out the oscillations, giving you a "mushy" hit at much lower force than the "slingshot" acceleration provided by the spring/toggle arm linkage. I've thought about using a Champion-style leaf spring bow linkage for one of these, just to avoid any math in calculating the toggle length on the DuPont-style linkage.

 

Hmmm...do you mean something like these?

workshop032_1.jpg

ham2_4.jpg

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Hmmm...do you mean something like these?

 

 

Bingo! :D

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Here is Ron's Clinker Breaker write up about the tire hamer workshop in Tallahassee. He also sent some pics that were taken at Clay's demo at Tannehill last Dec. But it is a 1 meg file so I'm not sending it. Recon if anybody wants to see them I could post them on Flicker or Photobucket.

 

Ken

 

>

> Tire Hammer Workshop

>

>We completed the Clay Spencer 3 day Ray Klontz

>tire power hammer workshop at Mike Bettinger's

>welding shop in Tallahassee on May 28. We built

>14 hammers. The "3 day work shop" is a slight

>misnomer. We did it in 3 days because of the

>several weeks of preparation and preliminary

>work done by a number of participants.

>

>We cut, drilled, punched, sawed, ground,

>fabricated and welded up what seemed like

>thousands of parts. The measurements and

>alignment of parts such as the toggle linkage

>and spacing is critical as is center punching,

>drilling and tapping the holes in the ram and anvil.

>

>We had most of the parts fabricated by the time

>the assembly began and were fortunate to have a

>couple guys who are professional welders working

>almost constantly. We were pouring lead, fitting

>parts, welding and heat treating the dies,

>re-packing the wheel bearings, cutting the crank

>plates to fit the wheels and numerous other

>chores that kept every one busy. Mike's son did

>the electrical wiring for the motors. There was

>no room for slack and the successful completion depended upon everyone

working.

>

>It was hot, noisy, stinky, tiresome and dirty-

>it doesn't get any better than that. Best of

>all, no one was injured and it was fun working

>in such a sprit of cooperation with so many people.

>

>The most time spent on the preliminary work was

>done by Troy Brown who also got his friends in

>from Oklahoma to weld the large parts such as

>the anvils to the bases, etc. We also had people

>from Homestead, Tampa, Alabama, Arizona and north Georgia.

>

>Some points to remember in a project such as this:

>

>Publicity: I put notices in The Clinker Breaker,

>Theforge, Anvilfire, Bituminous Bits and several blade forums.

>

>Facility: We were fortunate to have Mike

>Bettinger's welding shop with every thing we

>needed including an overhead crane and a

>forklift, an Iron Worker to punch the numerous

>holes, drill presses, mag drills, band saws, a

>cold saw, track torch, mig welders and other equipment.

>

>Preliminary work: Several of us spent numerous

>afternoons and a couple Saturdays working on the

>small parts. This is an absolute necessity.

>

>Scrounging: We cut the bases out of 5/8 I beam

>that Mike had scrounged and used his track torch

>which was faster and easier than cutting with a hand-held torch.

>

>The more stuff that can be scrounged, the

>cheaper it is to build. It still cost a little

>over $1000 each for the dirty dozen and Clay and

>Mike each got a hammer in the deal.

>

>Dealing with junk yards, at least around here,

>is a real trip. The miserable sob's don't have

>any idea unless you show them a parts manual and

>in one case where we got 7 assemblies, they

>didn't include the lug nuts and left out the

>bearing keepers- Junk yard mentality = don't know/don't care; watch 'em.

>

>The assembly will go faster if all the spindles

>and tires are the same brand and size, thus

>eliminating a lot of shimming and different

>templates for the hole patterns but don't expect

>those morons to match them for you.

>

>Precision: The parts must be punched and drilled

>to exacting specifications; Clay furnished jigs

>for this and we used transfer punches to center

>punch the plates and the anvil, etc.

>

>Mechanical aptitude: This project pre-supposes a

>modicum of mechanical ability. Some adjustments

>will probably have to be made (Clay discussed

>this at the debriefing) and you will have to radius the dies to suit you.

>

Plans: Clay said his final plans will be available soon. Remember, though,

we had jigs for almost every part and assembly process so the critical

measurements were close. If you do it on your own, you better measure twice.

 

>

>There are probably some aspects of the work shop

>I've forgotten, but I think the above covers most of it.

>

>Ron Childers

>

>

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What I would realy like to see is a detailed blue print of the toggle link. There are a few of us that can do precission work. I'm not a machinest, but can read a tape measure, and a caliper for that matter, and I have a set of centering punches that I made, and I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night.

 

What I need to know for a spring design for a 50lb. hammer is:

1: how hard/soft/give are the springs?

2:how much spring travel?

3:how much ajustment, ajust where?

4:how much flywheel counter wieght, how much flywheel total wieght?

5:pully vs. tire size?

6:die sizes? Most interested in flatting, with a very slight rounding.

7:die material and harness?

:unsure:

 

If I can figure thouse out I've been drawing up a spring linkage design similar to the roller hammer but using two spring instead of one, and I believe I would machine bronze bushings for it.

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What I would realy like to see is a detailed blue print of the toggle link. There are a few of us that can do precission work. I'm not a machinest, but can read a tape measure, and a caliper for that matter, and I have a set of centering punches that I made, and I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night.

 

What I need to know for a spring design for a 50lb. hammer is:

1: how hard/soft/give are the springs?

2:how much spring travel?

3:how much ajustment, ajust where?

4:how much flywheel counter wieght, how much flywheel total wieght?

5:pully vs. tire size?

6:die sizes? Most interested in flatting, with a very slight rounding.

7:die material and harness?

:unsure:

 

If I can figure thouse out I've been drawing up a spring linkage design similar to the roller hammer but using two spring instead of one, and I believe I would machine bronze bushings for it.

 

I did an experiment with linkage using bronze bushings.

It looked promising.

Already have alot of the steel. (I can't see $1000.00, maybe $500.00 tops unless your buying new everything.)

I need a hammer, rather it's this one or something else.

If the plans are coming out I'll wait and see if it's not long in coming.

If so, I'll take a shot at this or something..

Josh

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