Greg Thomas Obach Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 After reading " the Anvil's ring" spring 1999 vol.26 No.4..... the article on super quench ... i'm abit surprised at this....!!!! what is going on with the metal... is this some kind of funky case hardening.. i thought carbon was a key contributer to hardening.... but apparently not so in this quench.... has anyone looked into it......or is it just a pile of bs the recipe is... 5 gallons of water 24 ounces of Dawn dish soap 5 lbs of table salt 8 ounces of Shaklee Basic I. its suppose to harden mild steel......... i'm wondering if anyone has put this to the test ........and looked at it under the microscope ??? Greg North Shore Forge & Ironworks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Blue Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Some of what is happening is grain refinement. Even fine pearlite can be quite tough and exhibit features of hardness despite not being martensite. For sure, it's only a thin skin, but an effect nontheless. There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. Will Rogers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Thomas Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 (edited) Remember too that all steel has carbon, even if it's a small amount, and the number one factor in increasing hardenability is carbon. If it is properly austenitized and cooled quickly enough it will make martensite. Pure iron can be austenitized and theoretically would harden if it were possible to cool it fast enough. A steel of about .13% carbon and a moderate amount of manganese can attain a maximum hardness of around 45 Rc. Low carbon steel does have to be austenitized at a higher temperature however to attain it's full level of hardness, closer to 1600 degrees F if I rememebr right. (Most of my information is taken from "Principles of Heat Treatment" by M. A. Grossman and "Alloying Elements in Steel" by Edgar C. Bain, most of my practical experience is just in working with steels like 1084 and 5160.) Edited to add: I meant to say something about the super quench formula, I believe it does speed the quench up quite a bit. Chuck Robinson uses super quench on the bladesmithing post anvils he makes which I believe (damn my memory!) are in the range of .30-.40 percent carbon steels. Edited August 17, 2006 by Guy Thomas Guy Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howard Clark Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 "Hardenability" is dependant on alloying elements that are not carbon, manganese the most common and effecive for low cost. How hard the steel "can get" as quenched in a fully martensitic condition, is what is determined by the carbon content. Top end occurs at about .95%C and HRC 66-67. You can add more carbon, but you can't get it harder by doing so, you just get more carbides. This is confusing, and "hardenability" is a somewhat more complicated matter than many think. I might add that martensite of this high carbon level and hardness is quite brittle as well, and must be tempered or it may spontaneously crack after the quench by some amount of time (generally short). I haven't fooled much with low carbon martensite, preferring instead to use higher carbon and temper it back to the hardness I want. Good steel is not 'that' hard to come by, and super quench is an answer with no question for blades, IMO. There are situations that might make it useful in the blacksmith shop, or for short run tooling or an emergency fix of some sort in primitive conditions. Good stuff to know, but not all that useful, really. My opinion only, your actual mileage may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Thomas Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Thanks Howard, so this is what I should have said: "Remember too that all steel has carbon, even if it's a small amount, and the number one factor in increasing hardness is carbon." I guess I need to go back and re-read these basic principles again. The distinctions are important! Guy Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 There are situations that might make it useful in the blacksmith shop, or for short run tooling or an emergency fix of some sort in primitive conditions. Good stuff to know, but not all that useful, really. I'd have to agree. To add what little understanding I have of it, Guy is on track about it being a faster quench. It's more or less a brine with serious hi-temp surfactants in it, designed to overcome the vapor-jacket phenomenon that keeps the temperature of the steel from falling as fast as it could. Kinda the same effect as holding the steel in a laminar-flow stream of ice water at several cubic feet per minute flow. It was designed for and works on A-36, which as we know can have anywhere from 0.1 to 0.4% carbon in it. I've accidentally hardened the stuff in a cold slack tub. The classic example is that of a chisel made from A-36, superquenched, and then used to cut the bar it came from with no edge damage. I am not impressed, as I do this with 5160 and an oil quench. Big whoop. Plus, I have a real tool afterwards! The superquenched A-36 isn't gonna cut 5160 with no damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Thomas Obach Posted August 17, 2006 Author Share Posted August 17, 2006 thanks all guess my eyes were abit closed to the potential hardenability of a-36 and it's alloying elements.... the quench was suppose to be a replacement for a lye/ sodium hydroxide quench... i'm still on the fence about it...... i'd never use it for a replacement for Good knife steels.... just when you figure you've got a small grip on what steel is.... somethings just popps up to change that... to quote the article " Robb so dumbfounded the metallurgists at the lab that they were determined to prove him wrong. A considerable amount of testing was done at Sandia National Labs on what was then called the " soap solution quench". The results verified that technically, even without enough carbon in 1018 to harden, he consistently got 43 to 45 Rockwell C all the way through a 1 inch round. " i'll have to do some more reading Greg North Shore Forge & Ironworks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Finnigan Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 I have used it with very good results for quenching spike knives. Thier carbon level is right on the edge wether to oil or super quench. To date I have not had any negative feedback from customers that have bought them. My neighbor uses one to cut the twine on hay bales. He has not had to sharpen it in over 1 1/2 yrs. Aside from railroad spike knives I do not use it for any other blades. Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement. I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kb0fhp Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Brine quenchants with surfactants are used commonly - we even sell one that works real well. D. Scott MacKenzie, PhD Heat Treating (Aluminum and Steel) Quenching (Water, Polymer, Oil, Salt and Mar-Tempering) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 I had a 55 gallon drum of this stuff in the shop years ago. I would quench some fishnet anchors in it for grain refining and to "harden" up the bends. it worked fine and there was always some fun with sounds when I would dunk a 1 1/2" solid round into it and stir.........smelled good too. It will rust everything in the shop a bit faster as the salt goes intot he air, but other than that it was fine. I did have fun with quenching higher carbon steels into it....HISS...BANG....CRACK Ric Richard Furrer Door County Forgeworks Sturgeon Bay, WI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giuseppe Maresca Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 Somewhere on my old books I read that the one of the faster quenchant is the mercury-quicksilver, since the thermal conductivity is very high; did someone here ever done some test? Mourir pour des idées, c'est bien beau mais lesquelles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Thomas Obach Posted August 22, 2006 Author Share Posted August 22, 2006 i believe mercury would work well But ...... its toxic.. and i'd be very afraid of the vapour... back in the good old days... i'm postive they'd have used it heres a link to the disease... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minamata_disease i'm still very PO'ed at dentists for putting amalgam fillings in my teeth... anyhow.. now i'm on the search for some shaklee... ... and a big cauldron Greg North Shore Forge & Ironworks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Massey Posted August 22, 2006 Share Posted August 22, 2006 I have a good sized container of superquench beside my anvil stump. The main use it's for is cooling down things when forging shapes or grinding small pieces of metal. Among it's other properties, one seems to be that it doesn't freeze up in mid winter up here. Very useful in an unheated shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kb0fhp Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Somewhere on my old books I read that the one of the faster quenchant is the mercury-quicksilver, since the thermal conductivity is very high; did someone here ever done some test? MErcury was used - as was molten lead. Still is being used for limited applications. Very fast and uniform heat transfer - something like quenching in a salt bath but much faster - there is also the benefit that the heat transfer is all conduction. But the people that did do this, and now responsible for an EPA super-fund clean up..... There are better, safer things to do now.... D. Scott MacKenzie, PhD Heat Treating (Aluminum and Steel) Quenching (Water, Polymer, Oil, Salt and Mar-Tempering) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Finnigan Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) With mercury at $200 a Lbs. it would be quite expensive to have enough to quench a blade. I would like to try Field's Metal for quenching. It's melting point is 144 Deg F. and is non-toxic. Field's metal info Edited August 23, 2006 by B Finnigan Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement. I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Thomas Obach Posted August 23, 2006 Author Share Posted August 23, 2006 i had no idea that these quenches were so popular... conduction and no vapour jacket... now thats interesting wonder if field's metal conducts in a similar manner.. Greg hey Al ... how's it going out there..? North Shore Forge & Ironworks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Finnigan Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 Indium,tin and bismuth are all conductors so an alloy of them would also be. Field's metal is also expensive but I may have to try it real soon. Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement. I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giuseppe Maresca Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 MErcury was used - as was molten lead. Still is being used for limited applications. Very fast and uniform heat transfer - something like quenching in a salt bath but much faster - there is also the benefit that the heat transfer is all conduction. But the people that did do this, and now responsible for an EPA super-fund clean up..... There are better, safer things to do now.... I read that lead was used also to temper springs. I believed that 320°C where too high to harden stuff... Tin isn't toxic, is inexpensive and melts at 230°C (like low temp salts, or I mistake?). High conductivity too. Do you know if it is used? Mourir pour des idées, c'est bien beau mais lesquelles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Finnigan Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 (edited) deleted Edited March 3, 2010 by B Finnigan Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement. I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giuseppe Maresca Posted August 23, 2006 Share Posted August 23, 2006 327.46 °Celsius, 621.43 °Farenheight. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead Mourir pour des idées, c'est bien beau mais lesquelles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Finnigan Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 I guess my reference website is wrong. Everything I need to know I learned from the people trapped in my basement. I'm out of my mind but feel free to leave a message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kb0fhp Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Indium,tin and bismuth are all conductors so an alloy of them would also be. Field's metal is also expensive but I may have to try it real soon. Trouble with those metals, is that they cause either solid metal embrittlement - or liquid metal embrittlement. Results in the quenchant diffusing into a short way into the steel, coating the grain boundaries, and causing the stuff to be very brittle. Results in an intergranular fracture to the depth of the penetration..... D. Scott MacKenzie, PhD Heat Treating (Aluminum and Steel) Quenching (Water, Polymer, Oil, Salt and Mar-Tempering) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Fisher Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 After reading " the Anvil's ring" spring 1999 vol.26 No.4..... the article on super quench ... i'm abit surprised at this....!!!! what is going on with the metal... is this some kind of funky case hardening.. i thought carbon was a key contributer to hardening.... but apparently not so in this quench.... has anyone looked into it......or is it just a pile of bs the recipe is... 5 gallons of water 24 ounces of Dawn dish soap 5 lbs of table salt 8 ounces of Shaklee Basic I. its suppose to harden mild steel......... i'm wondering if anyone has put this to the test ........and looked at it under the microscope ??? Greg Thought it worth mentioning that Jet Dry can be substituted for the Shaklee Basic. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kb0fhp Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 Lead is still used for wire patenting applications - but they have a real time meeting EPA/OSHA regulations with the stuff. The "super-quench" would be a fast quench and probably faster than water. The table salt causes the vapor phase to break up faster and initiate nucleate boiling at a higher temperature. The rest is surfactants to cause better wetting of the quenchant on the steel. It would work fine for very low hardenability steels. Tin could be used, but it may cause liquid metal embrittlement (it depends on the steel composition). Indium and bismuth also cause liquid metal embrittlement. Salts are commonly used for martempering or austempering applications. D. Scott MacKenzie, PhD Heat Treating (Aluminum and Steel) Quenching (Water, Polymer, Oil, Salt and Mar-Tempering) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDunham Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 I know this is an old thread, but... what kind of Jet-Dry? Thanks support Appalachian miners - smith with American coal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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