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Svet

Gas burners design

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Thanks a lot, birdog4.

I will wait for your post with the dimensions - post them whenever you have the time, I am not in a hurry.

Got to finish with my birthday party first and only after I do that I'll be back to forge building. :)

I think the photos of your Ventury burner gave me the answer to my quest - seems that I will have to elongate my burner's air pipe, drill more air holes and eventually use a reducer to help mix the gas with the ambient air.

 

I hear that flares are very important when we're talking Venturi forges.

What is your flare made of and what is its taper step?

 

I read somewhere on the net that 1:12 is the correct taper ratio on the flare's cone.

This means that the cone increases in diameter by 1 inch at every 12 inches of length.

Will have the chance to test this pretty soon.

 

Thanks!

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Svet, tonight will be the last nice evening for a while so I went down and measured up.

I don't use a taper. Just stick the end of the burner an inch or so into the forge. Just so it doesn't protrude into the forge itself. The pipe will get hot and cause backfires.

 

There is a 10" pipe (15/8"diam.) welded to the reducer. The reducer is OD 1 5/8" expanding to 2 1/4" OD. The cap is 2 1/4"od with a hole drilled exactly center. This hole is the same size as the nipple holding the mig tip. The end of the nipple is forged down then tapped 1/4-20 to accept the mig tip. This is held place by a collar made froma piece of pipe and welded to the cap. A small set screw holds the nipple in place and allows you to adjust the depth. On mine, I can look in oneof the drilled holes and see the entire mig tip.

The shiny silver in front of the holes is a choke that slides back and forth to give you your air adjustment.

I fooled with this thing at first for 2 weeks. Couldn't get it to burn. Then discovered the mig tip was loose in the forged nipple. A little bit of teflon tape solved the problem and I was then able to go on and fine tune it.

The drilled holes really make for a good fuel/air mix. Good luck bruce

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I think the photos of your Ventury burner gave me the answer to my quest - seems that I will have to elongate my burner's air pipe, drill more air holes and eventually use a reducer to help mix the gas with the ambient air.

 

Svet. The main purpose of the reducer in Venturi burners is to increase the velocity of the gases entering the forge, when the gas hits the reducer, if there is enough pressure, the only thing it can do is speed up. The faster the gases flow into the forge, the more oxygen is pulled in with them. This is why Venturi burners opperate at higher gas pressures than a blown forge. They need the higher pressure to jet the fuel into the burner and draw in oxygen. If there are not enough holes to allow air into the burner, or they are too small, the burner will not pull in as much oxygen as it could. I believe that the length of the burner tube itself has more of an effect on the mixing of the fuel and oxygen. Longer tube equals more time for the gasses to mix.

 

I hear that flares are very important when we're talking Venturi forges.

What is your flare made of and what is its taper step?

 

I have repeatedly heard this about Venturi burners but, it has not been my own personal experience. The best Venturi burner I've ever used simply had a 1 inch to 1/2 inch bell reducer on the end (small end attached to burner, big end into forge.) It was a freon tank forge and a pretty small burner. My theory is that what is important is that there be enough of a difference in the diameters between the burner tube and flame holder to allow the gasses from the burner tube to slow down enough, as they exit, to hold a steady flame. Another point here is that if the gasses from the burner are moving too fast they can easily get shoved out of the forge before combusting completely, in which case the forge is not as efficient as it could be because btu's are being wasted.

 

Venturi burners generally use some kind of tip with a set orifice to inject the fuel into the burner. The burner mentioned above used a wire feed welder tip with a 0.035 inch hole. The welder tips are nice because they come in three sizes so you can change them out to find what works best for you. It is usefull in tuning your burner to be able to move the injector tube in or out of the burner to find the spot where it is most efficient. For me, that has been about 1/4 inch further into the burner than the last air inlets.

 

Have you seen this site? http://www.hybridburners.com/

Edited by B. Norris

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I did several tests today and I was unable to get my forge hot enough.

Have a look at this video - this is my first attempt with the air openings placed ahead of the gas nozzle. Most forge burners have this air opening placement:

VIDEO

 

Apparently, not much of a success.

 

 

Then I put the air holes BEHIND the nozzle and the flame became all blue and conical.

This setup got the spot against the flame yellow hot. Not the whole forge, though.

 

 

Then I used a reducer and a longer air pipe and the flame became saturated bright orange, mixed with blue. :confused:

Looked hotter tnan the blue conical flame I got without the elongation and the reducer.

This time I was able to make a larger area against the flame yellow hot. Still not the whole forge. Gotta use the second burner too.

Hopefully this would work.

 

I just saw this guy's setup. It turns out that he is using exactly the same brick for his forge and he is supplying it with a rather small burner. Huh...

Scroll down to the second half of this page:

ClICK

 

I want to be able to work in a similar manner - a long forge chamber with small burners.

Alas, I still don't have any success at it.

 

Funny thing is that there is another guy (Jason Cutter) who is using a very similar to mine PLUMBING burner without any improvements or modifications and his plumbing burner seems to work pretty damn OK:

origpictidcc676d1d5f0a4dt1.jpg

 

 

Hmmm, wonder what is wrong with mine...

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From looking at your video, you aren't getting enough air into the forge with that burner. You need either bigger holes behind the gas jet, more gas pressure, or both. The sound, which seemed to be a gentle hiss in your video, ought to be more of a full-throated roar if things are working as they ought. The feathery blue flames rolling out the front are a sign of a seriously reducing atmosphere, or more fuel than there is oxygen available to burn. Ought to be a lot of Carbon Monoxide in there, be careful! :blink:

 

Maybe the gas jet hole in your burner is too big? Just a thought.

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It looks to me that both on the Ellis page, and in the pics you posted, that the folks are getting similar results; a very narrow hot spot right in front of the burner. This is not really what you want, since it tends to burn the steel in one spot while not heating the rest of the steel enough.

 

Also, in your video the flame is feathery and soft, less so when you turn up the pressure. You want a good hard roar and a blue/white tip on the flame. IMHO, you don't have enough pressure, or the orifice is too large. Here is part of a chart showing metric equivalents for US numbered drill sizes.

 

1.1811mm .0465" #56

1.3208mm .052" #55

1.397mm .055" #54

 

When I first saw venturi burners people were taking a blank cap and drilling the orifice, later some folks tried using carburetor jets, soldering up the orifice, and re-drilling it. Both of these worked pretty well.

 

If I were you, I would build a small (say 1 inch...uh...25MM?) blown burner on the order of the one I posted. You won't need much of a fan, 15-30CFM should do the job. You don't strictly need the needle valve since you seem able to control the pressure at the tank.

 

If you have access to ITC100, try coating the inside of the brick with that, it should help quite a bit.

 

Geoff

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Thanks guys.

 

I don't think that it is possible to avoid the hot spot on the opposite side of the burner. I am not a gas forge expert (apparently) but about 100% of all forges I've seen online were sporting a hot spot.

I don't want to make a huge barrel forge too since I don't have room to install it and since I don't have connections with the Russian gas mafia. Hell no, I will not pay for tons of Propane just to be able to heat-treat a bloody piece of iron.

 

Also, I am almost sure that I got poisoned by CO today since I am having a headache (I've never had one in my entire life).

If I survive the night, I will try to build a forced air burner and if it again turns out to be just another failure, I'll just stick to good old messy charcoal.

 

The hell with these bullshit gas forges!

Edited by Svet

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:lol: Sorry, my man. I refer you back to post 7 :) That you managed to escape the CO long enough to post ought to be a good sign that you'll survive.

Don't give up on the propane burners!! Forced systems will use less propane than what you've been using trying to get your venturi working. Just keep it simple and make a burner that you know will work (Geoff's or Don's would be a good palce to start and you probably won't think about tinkering with either for a long time).

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Yap, I will try a forced air setup.

Mr Fogg's setup looks like the best of them all.

It has the nozzle before the knee.

I will try to make one.

untitled1nh9.jpg

 

I don't have a cap for attaching the nozzle, though.

Guess I will have to make one out of something.

 

 

 

I forgot to ask:

What is the average gas pressure required for running a forced air burner?

Also, what happens when the air is much more than is needed? Does the gas simply combust inside of the burner?

Is it better and/or safer to have a little bit more air than is needed in the mix?

Thanks!

Edited by Svet

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From your video its appears that once you crank the psi up you get a decent roar but I don't like the licking flame (sorry about the description) mixed with the blue cone. You want a nice blue cone that roar's.

 

I still say your forge diameter is too small. You don't have enough volume for the gas to burn.

 

Cut that forge into thirds, cut a burner hole in the middle of one third and try that. I suspect it will work better than what you have now.

 

The insulating value of that stuff your using is very important as well but first fig. out the correct forge volume for your burner.

 

Have you been to Ron Reil's web site? He covers everything you would want to know about venturi burners, design, use, construction, etc.

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That video looks like what the burner I use will do if I turn down the gas until the needle on the gauge is all the way down at zero.

 

Most of the time, I run my venturi at about 2-3 pounds of pressure. The body of my venturi forge is 6" diameter with about 1 1/2 inches of kaowool for insulation and about 13" long. I use one burner it in. I've had good luck with this design http://www.geocities.com/zoellerforge/sidearm.html (I think it was posted earlier.)

 

When I help somebody build their first forge, I usually use the sidearm burner. It keeps it at a good forging temperature without overheating. It's also easy to build and tune.

 

I use a similar forced air design as what you drew, however I wonder if a hair dryer is going to provide enough air.

 

Jamie

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Svet,

 

The thing I like about my design, which is based heavily on Don's, is the use of "T"'s and reducer bushings, all of which are off-the-shelf parts. I don't fabricate anything in the burner, except the fan mount (all fans are just a little bit different, which is why I bought 3 the last time, no more creating the wheel each time).

 

I don't have a cap for attaching the nozzle, though.

 

All of my propane lines use a standard 1/4 NPT (National Pipe Thread) fitting. The bushings are also 1/4 NPT, and the needle valves are 1/4 NPT.

 

What is the average gas pressure required for running a forced air burner?

 

I'm running mine between 1-3 psi from the tank (I use the big 20 gallon tanks) and then regulate from there with the needle valve (so just a few ounces of line pressure).

 

Also, what happens when the air is much more than is needed?

 

Mine has a lot more fan than it really needs, at full speed it blows the fire out, it won't hold a flame. I've got it choked down probably 90%.

 

Is it better and/or safer to have a little bit more air than is needed in the mix?

 

A bit more is fine. If you have just a bit of greenish flame out the door, then you are burning all of the air in the forge and the last bit of gas is combusting in the open air. You do want to have some control though. A small bathroom vent fan on a rheostat (a dimmer switch) gives you some control of the air, and the needle valve controls the gas.

 

 

Also, I am almost sure that I got poisoned by CO today since I am having a headache (I've never had one in my entire life).

 

I have a big open space right now, and when I used these forges in a small, closed space, I used a vent fan to make sure that CO didn't build up. Better forging in the cold than CO poisoning.

 

Sorry for the novel

Good luck

Geoff

Edited by Geoff Keyes

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From your video its appears that once you crank the psi up you get a decent roar but I don't like the licking flame (sorry about the description) mixed with the blue cone. You want a nice blue cone that roar's.

The roar of this plumbing burner is imbearable even at low gas pressure.

I am sorry that it could not be heard on the video.

I managed to get a very sharp conical flame with literally pointy tip that was all blue by simply moving the air holes behind the gas nozzle.

Unfortunately all this conical blue flame did was a hot spot on the opposite side of the forge.

 

I still say your forge diameter is too small. You don't have enough volume for the gas to burn.

Maybe. i will try a bigger diameter chamber when i have the chance.

Btw what do you think about this forge? The guy built it for heat treating of swords (this is what I need mine for too)

It seems that his forge's diameter is even smaller than mine and the thing still works.

Here:

IMG_77.jpg

 

Cut that forge into thirds, cut a burner hole in the middle of one third and try that. I suspect it will work better than what you have now.

This is what I did.

My burner hole is at 1/3 the length of the forge. Not in the middle of the 1/3, though. That would be 1/6 from the end - too close, I think. Or am I wrong?

 

The insulating value of that stuff your using is very important as well but first fig. out the correct forge volume for your burner.

Ytong is designed as an insulator. It turned out to be a good one too.

The forge was outside in the snow at minus 3 degrees Celsius.

I ran it for half an hour and experimented with it. When I was finished with all the experiments, its outer surface was still freezing cold - not much warmer than when I took it out of the snow drift.

Actually I think that I need something that can absorb heat rather than reflect it. I have the feeling that the interior walls of the forge should be hot to help retain the heat inside. Next time I'll try a refractory brick forge.

 

Have you been to Ron Reil's web site? He covers everything you would want to know about venturi burners, design, use, construction, etc.

Yes, been there many times. I learned a lot form this site.

Too bad that I can't put all that lore into practice.

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One Big difference I see between the pic and the video is placement of the burner. In the pic the end of the burner nozzle is just outside the forge body. In the video the burner nozzle is placed inside the forge body all else being similar this could make a big difference.

 

Sizing burners to forges is very critical. I used to run a car bottom normalizing furnace. The burners where replaced on one time to get a more even burn, and you quessed it they used smaller burners than what was originally installed in the furnace. It improved performance one hundred percent.

 

A really good treatise on building small forges. This one article has influenzed all the forges I have built since I read it.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Author: Randal October 16, 2000 at 05:22:20

I've talked about normallizing, annealing, and heat-treating in general out of a gas forge...thought I should clarify some things.

First, my favorite fuel is Charcoal...but to be honest, my belief is that it's romantic, smells nice, and fun, but quite inconvenient at times, so generally I'm using a propane fired gas forge for most forging and heat-treating. I have a larger propane forge for general smithing and welding big billets, or breaking down large steel stock.

This main forge of mine is very small. It's a 7 inch diameter pipe with 1/4 inch wall, and it's 10 inches long. The ends are capped with 1/4 inch plate, and in the ends, centered, are small triangular doors, with rounded bottoms on the openings...this helps to center blades and stuff in the forge while working. So, with the lining (one inch kaowool) , the chamber is 5 inch dia. by 8 inches long.

Yes, it's REALLY small.

In forging work, it'll quickly heat up a 5-6 inch section. That's all I need to deal with at one time, especially doing swords. Heating more than that at a time is more trouble than it's worth, and a waste of gas. I can normalize and heat-treat blades up to around 40 inches in this forge with no trouble, using the pass-back-and-forth method. Great exercise for the shoulders.

It's fired by a simple single venturi burner mounted off-angle from the center, so the fire swirls around the lining and promotes even heat. I know a few have said this isn't necessary...but it is, after building literally dozens of forges, I can tell you that it gives you more heat, more efficiency, and cleaner/more even burns.

The forge is mounted horizontally, by the way.

This forge runs about 8-10 hours for me off 20# of gas, it's the best I've had so far in gas consumption, and it is capable of 2800-3000F temps if needed, but it's rare.

I ONLY forge and heat-treat with this unit, I NEVER put flux in it, or use it for any welding or soldering. It's my main forge and I want to keep it in good condition, especially for heat-treating. I have another larger forge for the dirty-stuff, like welding. It costs something like 30 or 40 bucks to build, but it's handy to have both torches and some kind of welding ability. Burner is a pipe-fitting burner, like Ron Reil's.

Now, what I find, is that when we want more heat, the "thag muscle", the big one that connects the male's mind directly to his dick through the center of the body, influences us to believe that bigger is obviously the answer. It's not necessarily true though, as many things the thag muscle would want us to believe.

My small forge gives me enormous "fire-power" through virtue of it's small chamber, which very intensely focuses and captures the fire and it's potential for making heat. With a needle valve positioned so adjustments can be made quickly and intuitively, it also allows for a huge amount of immediate control. When I'm heat-treating a sword, I can also watch the blade out the backside of the forge, as well as the front, and have a very good on-the-fly view of exactly where my heat is going and what areas need to be addressed. It doesn't take very long before this whole back-and-forth method gets quite intuitive and natural, it gets easier every time it seems. Still, it requires a fair amount of time and practice to get real good at it. My time is cheap to me, what the hell.

And we have an innate tendency to get into a rush, which is a bad thing with an open atmosphere forge and heat-treating procedures...you WILL overheat something, and/or make a hot/cold spot. Trust me, you will. What I find I need to do is relax and take it slow, and move things up in temp in steps, keeping it all under my control. Don't allow the fire to dictate what's going to happen, keep control. I creep up to critical non-,mag temps slowly and deliberately, and hold the blades there as well for a time, paying attention not to be any hotter than necessary. Cool thing is if you take it easy and come up reasonably slow, the blades will appear to go non-mag at a lower temp...to an extent this is technically true, but as well it's just allowing things to stay caught-up during the process. When you heat fast and hard, surface temps blaze into the upper oranges but the core stays cooler, enough to fool both you and the magnet. so by the time you quench, you're hotter than you need to be by quite a margin, and this all adds up to extra stress and increased chances of failure in the quench... coarse grain, cracking, warping, uneven curvatures, all that crappy stuff we gotta fight with.

Remember not just to consider the outside of the steel, remember the inside as well, it's like cooking kinda. You don't want the inside un-cooked.

This all applies to salt-bath stuff and any heat-treating equipment really, as well. Just relax and take it easy, you can't make steel do anything...you can only ask it. Steel is a "she", no matter what anyone else sez...so treat her as such and be nice. When you get demanding, she gets bitchy.

Now, the basics really are very basic. But keep in mind that within these basics is room for an enormous amount of playing around, and that’s a good thing, that’s where you discover stuff. But first, getting a basic repeatable and reliable routine established is all-important, it becomes a forever base-line for you to stray from, and come back too, as it's needed. My basics are...

1) I can break-down and rough form blanks and big stock at high temps, so heats last longer and I can move maximum amounts of steel in a given time...but I have to realize and understand that this will have to be addressed later during forging and heat-treating, I have to know that I am in fact causing grain growth and a lot of stresses doing it this way.

2) I can start thermal cycling and treating right at the point where I start forging, and I have to get best results. I don't like getting things much over high orange...1600-1700f during heavy shaping, and I don't like letting it get to cold either, dull red means back to the fire.

3) When I get down to shaping fine surfaces and cleaning up lines and bevels, just heating to critical is where I want to go, and I lightly work the steel as it passes down to low reds and almost black...this way this fine-forging process also can add the elements of normalization to the process, and it starts everything off nicely for the dedicated thermal cycling that comes afterwards.

4) After forging a piece to satisfaction, it MUST be completely and thoroughly normalized...I accomplish this by carefully heating the entire blade, regardless of size, evenly to the non-magnetic temp and allowing it to cool in still air, to black...under 900F And I repeat this process for three complete cycles.

5) I have a high opinion of spherodized annealing...although do it in a very low-tech kinda way...it works regardless. I take the blade back up to reds, 1200-1300F, and do not allow any part of the blade to go non-mag or reach critical temps. I hold it here for around 30-40 minutes if it's a sword blade, maybe less if it's knife-sized, and deliberately cool it slowly, eventually allowing it to reach room temp. This will accomplish some very interesting things, most important are the softness of the steel, making it easy to shape and work, and how it will increase the results of the subsequent hardening and drawing cycles.

6) At this point I will do as much of the shaping and forming work as I possibly can, filing, scraping, carving, grinding...now is the time to do all of the heavy removal work, and to make sure all the lines are where they are supposed to be, and straight and crisp. It saves a crapload of work later on. It also ensures best results during hardening. IF no clay or differential hardening is in store for the given blade, I may finish it to a high level here, perhaps 400-600 grit, to again save labour later when the blade is hard. If I am clay-treating, I drawfile everything smooth, or go no finer than 120 grit, to ensure clay adheres during the process. you CANNOT have a sharp or sharp-cornered edge when you harden, it'll likely crack. I go through great pains to make sure the edge is smooth and round. I also make all scratch-patterns ALONG the blade, instead of across...this will help prevent cracks.

7) I'm ready to harden... I'll sometimes pre-heat the tang/shoulder area on a big blade just a little bit before I start passing the blade through the forge and bringing it all up to temp...this can help this problem area on the really long stuff. I do it by simply running the blade all the way through till my bar and the blades tang are in the fire themselves, with an idle going in the forge...I just let some reds just BARELY start showing on the tang, then I start. I bring it up as even as I can, I'll address cold/hot spots as they occur by stopping in the fire for a second, or moving faster past a hot spot...whatever feels good, until I get to a nice, even upper red, just below non-mag. At this point I'll add a little more fire until I start to get that orange glow along the edge, then back off a bit until It seems this is all the temp I'll get on the edge...usually you can simply keep going and wait for the rest of the blade to catch up, sometimes a little extra tweak of gas will be required... the aim is to get critical temp even throughout the entire blade, and to hold it there for a bit, a couple of minutes is good, without going any hotter than necessary.

8) then I quench. I have a number of methods for the quench, but the two basics are oil and water. In both cases it will help to pre-heat the quench...100-120F in both cases...it'll reduce the shock and increase the success, although room-temp water and oil can be used successfully if you got a particularly well-developed thag muscle. After all the rolling and boiling has stopped in the quench, then IMMEDIATELY go to the draw, or tempering cycle. Waste no time.

9) I draw three times, more if some straightening is required, at temps ranging from 300-600 and for usually half-hour cycles.

10) I have a scotch.

That is just the basics, and it's my own base-line. I do at times vary some of it in order to explore ideas or look for specific results, but it's all based on this set of steps and usually doesn’t stray to far.

It's also where I think we should all start...BEFORE fancy gear or big words, it'll allow you to get to a point where metallurgical explanations and concepts will make sense, because you will already have seen and experienced them. It makes the salt-baths and big words work a whole lot better if you can do it the "hard way" and no what it is you should be looking for during the processes.

One last thing, if you are going to forge and heat-treat yourself, you really may benefit by choosing a very small selection of steels and sticking with them, at least for a few years, before you try and use a whole bunch of different stuff.

I highly recommend 1050 for tools and such. I also recommend it for a starter steel when clay-hardening Japanese-style stuff is concerned.

5160 is a good basic big-knife and sword steel.

1084 and 1095 are great all-around blade steels, and also, my favorite all-around steel these days is Howard Clark's 1086M. If I could only have one, it would be the 1086M.

And L-6 can be a good one to explore, however, it's problematic sometimes, so best start with the simple ones first.

Hope this didn't bore anyone... it helps me to go over the basics sometimes too, why not here I figure

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Hehe, thanks.

My thag muscle says that I must build a long forge for swords. :(

"Forget about the stupid in and out heating, forget about short forges" it says.

Darn, I can't help it but obey...

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Cooooooool!

Thanks for sharing this link. Lots of eye candies there. :)

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Well, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. I think you'll find, like many of us have, that the gas cost of heating 40 inches of forge when what you wanted was to heat a 4 inch piece of steel, will get to you. Forges are cheap to build, and a single design won't do everything you want, so why not build specialized forges for specialized work.

 

I have found that I can only work 3-5 inches of steel in a heat, so why waste the heat, not to mention scale on the parts you are not working on. I have lost the tip of I can't tell you how many pieces trying to get a heat in the middle of a long blade. This never happens in my vertical forge. OTOH, I don't HT the longer pieces in the small forge, I've got a big box for that, which I also use for welding.

 

I believe that Don has a big forge made from a 55 gallon drum that he uses for HT swords, but I'll bet he doesn't fire it up for those 6-12 inch blades.

 

Good luck

 

Geoff

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I believe that Don has a big forge made from a 55 gallon drum that he uses for HT swords, but I'll bet he doesn't fire it up for those 6-12 inch blades.

 

Good luck

 

Geoff

I use mine quite a bit Geoff,I bet Don does too.It has the ability to reach and maintain the full range of heat treating temps pretty quick.Surprisingly the gas consumption isn't that bad.It is exactly as they call it.A heat treating forge.

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Glenn's right, I do fire it up for the small blades. It works great and I have too many forges to build another smaller one, that might appear obsessive.

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Well, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. I think you'll find, like many of us have, that the gas cost of heating 40 inches of forge when what you wanted was to heat a 4 inch piece of steel, will get to you. Forges are cheap to build, and a single design won't do everything you want, so why not build specialized forges for specialized work.

This is what I am trying to do - I will use this long forge for heat treating of swords only.

It WILL be a forge for specialized work.

I will try MR Fogg's forced air burner setup. Gotta find some pipes from a home heating system first.

Thanks for all the support, guys, I learned a lot form this thread. All that is left is put it into practice and see what happens.

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