R.H.Graham Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Scott Slobodian does it that way I think. Big Freddie Lohman has alway used cast habaki. Personally, I wouldn't waste that much gas on a stupid habaki... Randal www.rhgraham.simpl.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Makin Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 The habaki hate on this thread is palpable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Vanspeybroeck Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 (edited) I actually really, *ReAlLy* like making habaki. I mean I'm not nuts about the machigane on a forged one but in general I love making hardware (including habaki) making handle cores and wrapping and polishing. The whole mounting thing just really is fun for me. Making blades? I can take or leave it. But the rest of it? Now that's what *I'm* talkin' about. But habaki are tedium and can be tough...you gotta be a little nuts. I have seen cast ones on swords and seen them on swords mounted by Lohman and used them on Gunto (most of the originals are cast...) and they work just fine. Maybe even better because they are cast to fit and usually do it very well. Brian Edited February 22, 2007 by Brian Vanspeybroeck "Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein "The innovator is not an opponent of the old. He is a proponent of the new." - Lyle E. Schaller http://home.mchsi.com/~hermits/BrianRVanSp..._Edged_Art.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.H.Graham Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 I actually really, *ReAlLy* like making habaki. I mean I'm not nuts about the machigane on a forged one but in general I love making hardware (including habaki) making handle cores and wrapping and polishing. The whole mounting thing just really is fun for me. Brian You are seriously disturbed Brian. I still like ya.... but very disturbed... Randal www.rhgraham.simpl.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 You are seriously disturbed Brian. I still like ya.... but very disturbed... Ditto.............. Let not the swords of good and free men be reforged into plowshares, but may they rest in a place of honor; ready, well oiled and God willing unused. For if the price of peace becomes licking the boots of tyrants, then "To Arms!" I say, and may the fortunes of war smile upon patriots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hastings Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 (edited) I have made a couple hundred Habaki over the years and I am still learning about the nuances from various view points. I have tested them and I have many in service in dojos all around the world which is really the best test IMO. The best solder I found is Hard solder of the 50 percent silver variety, Some Phosphorus does not hurt anything. I have been using a 15 percent silver solder with low Phosphorus. I prefer the 50 percent, but I have a life time supply of the 15 and the 50 is relatively expensive. The 15 is more difficult to use, but I have lots of practice with it. If your buying from a Jeweler supply you would want the "Easy" Silver solder as it will likely come in Easy, Medium, and Hard versions. "Easy" is still "Hard solder" so don't be confused between Process and Jeweler grades. The "Easy" has the lowest melting point of the three grades and tends to be the most malleable which is desirable for Habaki. During the fitting process the Habaki is hammered and stretched after it is soldered. This does two things. It assists in creating the tight fit to the Nakago and it rehardens the Copper that has been annealed from the joining process. To get this stretch fit tight the Solder joint needs to withstand distortion from the hammer in multiple directions. To stress and therefore harden the Copper in the Machi gane you have to stress the solder. In my experience I have found that the level of hammering I use causes the Soft solder to fail or be compromised. The 50 percent silver solder has an ideal strength and malleability combination for this hardening process. The 15 percent has strength, but is not as malleable and takes more care during fitting to keep it from splitting. I would personally recommend not using soft solder at all on a Habaki. Just step up and start with the Hard solder. Hard soldering is just not that hard guys. In the end you will save yourself some grief and have a much more authentic piece. If you don't know how to Hard solder it is a handy skill and you can pick it up in a few tries if not the first try. Don't let it intimidate you. If you are not going to reharden the Habaki then the point of soft or hard solder is almost moot but not quite. Soft will still work especially on smaller swords and Tanto that don't see much use let alone abuse. For long swords that will see use, the best quality IMO is hard soldered and work hardened. Soft solders are very weak and will not hold up during work hardening/final fit phase mentioned above. They may be compromised even if they do not fail right away. Soft solders fatigue very fast with little distortion. Soft solders have higher potential for creating strong galvanic cells and may create more corrosion problems in the long term. Brian you are correct that Soft solders tend to "shrink" more precisely they are stripped away. Depending on the environment soft solders can compromise themselves in a matter of years. Personally I strive to make heirloom quality product and Soft solder just does not stand up to the test of time. Hard Silver solders do not promote this problem or suffer from it in the antiques I have inspected. Soft solders are a contaminate in Roshuko. The Traditional patination formula for Japanese metals. Hard solders are similar to Shibuichi in composition (a Japanese alloy) and are completely compatible. If solder is used on Sword fittings, in general it is of the Hard variety. I can feel the frustration over Machi gane. If there is interest I can make some suggestions in a new thread. Patrick Edited February 24, 2007 by Patrick Hastings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hastings Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 A good primer on Soldering and Brazing is "Soldering and Brazing" by Tubal Cain Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan pfanenstiel Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 I can feel the frustration over Machi gane. If there is interest I can make some suggestions in a new thread. Patrick You bet! Any insights to making easier what frustrates me is welcome. Excellent points on the whole habaki thing there too. I am guilty of using what I've got laying around (pipe solder, soft solder, hard solder, braze) without true justification other than 'that's what I had'. Armed with good information, I can build better habaki with much better confidence. True of everything I do. Thanks Patrick. Dan Dan Pfanenstiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus Hernandez Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 It is great to hear the recomendations from someone with more experience like Patrick Hastings. I plan to use silver brazing for all habaki. So far I was using it for katana-size habaki but it makes sense to even use it for tanto. Enjoy life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanM Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 Now that it's been established that you should be using at least a medium flow hard silver solder. you need to think about the correct flux to use with the hard silver solder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Jones Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 "Easy" has the lowest melting point of the three grades and tends to be the most malleable which is desirable for Habaki. I think you may have this backwards. Silver solder is an alloy. Any time you add one non-ferrous metal to another you lower the melting point of the metal. "Hard" solder has the most amount of silver in it and silver is one, if not "the", most malleable metals on the planet. Open up any jewelry book and it will say that hard soldr is the most malleable and strongest of the three solder grades. Great thread! Phillip Jones http://customknives.com/jonesbrothers/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hastings Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 (edited) The two solders I like the most so far are. Ag1 50 percent silver content. A tensile strength of 57,000 Psi with an elongation of 35 percent. CP1 15 percent silver content. A tensile strength of 90,000 Psi with an elongation of 25 percent. For Habaki I would not use a Solder with less than 25 percent elongation, unless I just did not have anything else. The AG1 also known as "Easyflo no.1" has lots of cadmium in it. So take proper precautions while melting it. The CP1 is designed for joining copper to copper. It is just silver, copper, and less than 5 percent Phosphorus. It is not truely self fluxing. I use it with Harris white brazing flux which they don't offer anymore. CP1 still has a rather high Elongation percentage though not as extreme as AG1. You can Make Habaki with less Elongation than that, but everything gets more sensitive. These numbers match up with the feel of the solder in use. My past experience with easy, medium, and Hard solders indicates that easy is the softest and most malleable, but I could have it backwards. I have been known to mix up my facts. There are a lot of them floating around in my head . Jewelry supply houses seldom supply any specs other than the MP. I stopped buying Easy, med, and, hard silver solders 5 years ago because they are sold at a premium over standard commercial brazing products. You often do not know what you are getting other than the Mp. Ill check it out though thanks for the head up. Most hard solders you can buy today are ternary or quaternary systems rather than binary so making judgments on properties solely based on silver content alone are vague at best. Each varient needs to be assessed indiviudally, but If you can get specs for the elongation with the tensile strength you can estimate how malleable the solder is. Leaving the silver percentage as a constant and replacing some copper with Zinc, lead, Tin, Phos, Manganese and others can cause drastic changes in melting range, hardness, strength, ductility, and malleability. I can confirm that there are "Hard" Hard solders with up to 80 percent silver. There are even Plumb grade, but I don't know if they are considered easy med or hard a I don't have the composition for Plumb sterling solder? Looking at the variety of compositions I am not convinced that all "hard" Grade silver solders are more malleable than all "Easy" grade solders. Patrick Edited February 25, 2007 by Patrick Hastings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan pfanenstiel Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 I did searches for 'easyflo no.1' and didn't come up with much. Most of the jewelry supplies and solder specialties (hobby shops, etc) simply listed in percentages of silver. Like Easy #45 or something. Since my solder purchases have been limited to the local hardware store, maybe some shopping recommendations? Really good stuff guys. Really learning a lot here. Dan Pfanenstiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Jones Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 (edited) Strictly speaking from my experience with the "hard" silver solder here but i find it extremely malleable. I've made a good amount of solder bonded mokume and it performs very well. You can stretch this stuff out 10 times (or more) it's original length without it breaking the joint. Been using it on habaki as well. I just find it a whole lot more solid of a joint than the other solders. Especially the Stay-brite or the crappy plumbers solder. Patrick, I have to read your posts several times just to keep up with your knowledge. Defintely learning a lot from you. Edited February 25, 2007 by Phillip Jones Phillip Jones http://customknives.com/jonesbrothers/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hastings Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 I have not shopped for any for a couple years now. The first places I look locally are welding supply shops. If they sell welding rod, gases, and welders they will likely carry a selection of silver solders and fluxes. It is good to buy local and ask the knowledgeable guy in back which flux goes with which solder and what respirator to use with Cadmium/Zinc bearing Solder. The Flux is not good to breath. Technically you should be wearing shaded eye protection as well. Online the first place I looked is McMaster Carr. They do not list by name or Trade numbers, but rather composition. Enter Silver solder or 3287 into the "Find" box on the home page. This brings you to the right to the Silver solders. AG1 is listed as "Extra-Strong Silver" under alloys with Cadmium. The composition is almost identical to mine. I see at the bottom of the page they have My 15 percent also. CP1 is listed under "Silver/Copper/Phosphorus" with 15 percent Silver and 5 percent Phos. FYI AG1 and CP1 are British standards. The alloys themselves are fairly standard here in the US, but go under many different trade names so you have to play detective until you find a current source. It seems like every company uses a proprietary system to name there products, but you can find these two alloys in most line ups. AG1 contains 50AG,15CU,16ZN,19CD The McMaster version is a tiny bit different, but is basically the same thing it just has 1 percent less CD. CP1 Contains 14.5AG,80.9CU,4.6PHOS McMaster has it as 15,80,5 Even though this alloy has no Zinc or Cadmium You should still wear a respirator because Hot flux fumes can be dangerous to breath. Patrick Strictly speaking from my experience with the "hard" silver solder here but i find it extremely malleable. I've made a good amount of solder bonded mokume and it performs very well. You can stretch this stuff out 10 times (or more) it's original length without it breaking the joint. Been using it on habaki as well. I just find it a whole lot more solid of a joint than the other solders. Especially the Stay-brite or the crappy plumbers solder. Patrick, I have to read your posts several times just to keep up with your knowledge. Defintely learning a lot from you. Thats good to know Phillip. Would you happen to have the brand name or any specs on composition and strength for Hard grade you are using? Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan pfanenstiel Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 I have not shopped for any for a couple years now. The first places I look locally are welding supply shops. Patrick Aha! That recommendation sparked a memory. Went out into the shop and found my Harris Stay-Silv flux and single stick of silver solder I bought the last time I was in the welding supply place. Solder says Harris-15 on it, which checks out to be 15% silver and 5% phos, much like the CP1 Patrick uses. They also list several other grades from 30% to 56% silver. Here's a nice .pdf showing the Harris products Harris .pdf Guess I'm not as dumb as I thought, just didn't know why.... Now to separate all my solders and fluxes so I'm using the right thing for the right application. The solder I have is listed as having a shelf life of one year. Anyone chucking flux after one year? Dan Dan Pfanenstiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hastings Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Aha! That recommendation sparked a memory. Went out into the shop and found my Harris Stay-Silv flux and single stick of silver solder I bought the last time I was in the welding supply place. Solder says Harris-15 on it, which checks out to be 15% silver and 5% phos, much like the CP1 Patrick uses. They also list several other grades from 30% to 56% silver. Here's a nice .pdf showing the Harris products Harris .pdf Guess I'm not as dumb as I thought, just didn't know why.... Now to separate all my solders and fluxes so I'm using the right thing for the right application. The solder I have is listed as having a shelf life of one year. Anyone chucking flux after one year? Dan I have some Stay Silv Flux by Harris it is almost 10 years old. It is a white powder suspended in Distilled water. It does not seem to expire. The container is about the size of a coffee cup and will last me for as many Habaki as I could possibly make. Its good flux. For a time you could not get it from Harris anymore, but it turns out that it lasts and lasts. I have many other fluxes, but The Stay-Silv is the one I use with either solder I mentioned. My power and phone are going in and out so If I blink out of existence during this blizzard you will know why. My power was down for two days at the begining off the storm. Its back on now, but it could go out anytime. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanM Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 I prefer the jewelry grade solders H-6 (65% silver) to H-8 (80% silver) or even an IT-90 for all the non ferrous projects i do. i have rarely had a solder seam failure occur with the stresses i have induced,which would probably be more than the average Habaki would see in a lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillip Jones Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Patrick, I may be looking at this from only one perspective. The jewlers hard solder may be a lot different from that found at a welder's supply house, of which I am not familiar. Tried looking for the specs sent to me when i last ordered solder but evidently it was thrown away. Phillip Jones http://customknives.com/jonesbrothers/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Schehr Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Sorry to bring up an old topic but im having some difficulty with brazing. Im using a mapp torch with medium silver solder wire and I cant get the solder to consistently turn into liquid. It usually just get soft, breaks off and sticks to the machigane. Im currently using flux that is supposed to work with all lead free solder. Any tips on how to get the solder to consistently liquify and flow around the machigane would be greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus Hernandez Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Is the flux that you are using rated for the same temp that the brazing material? Enjoy life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Vanspeybroeck Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Usually when I see a chunk break off of the solder and apparently melt but it balls up and doesn't "flow" but seems to just stick somewhere and sit in a chunk or glob it is because the temperature of the piece being brazed/soldered is not at the liquidus temp. of the solder. The flame melts the solder or braze rod and it falls off the rod but it doesn't flow because the surrounding material is cooler than is needed to melt the solder. As soon as the molten solder hits the cooler metal it sticks to the surface and then cools below the melting point. Cold solder joint. The temperature of the entire piece needs to be at or slightly above the melting point of the solder/braze in order to get good flow. In practice this can get a little tough to judge. My way is to heat the piece being soldered and then remove the flame periodically and touch the braze rod/solder to the work piece. When it is hot enough that the solder flows easily and wets and spreads like water then I go ahead and braze the whole joint. I try to apply heat to an adjacent part of the work piece and let heat transfer do it's job. Sticking solder or braze rod into the flame directly always causes me to misjudge how hot the piece actually is....because the flame will melt the solder and not the workpiece. Or it could well be improper/insufficient flux as Jesus pointed out. Usually the solder will flow even without proper fluxing (for me) if the workpiece metal is up to melting temp. It just doesn't stick to the workpiece and then balls up and recombines again till it's cool if the flux is not doing it's job. Brian "Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein "The innovator is not an opponent of the old. He is a proponent of the new." - Lyle E. Schaller http://home.mchsi.com/~hermits/BrianRVanSp..._Edged_Art.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Longmire Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 (edited) I have found that too much heat in the workpiece can also cause problems with solder balling up and rolling off. However, from Spencer's description of the flux I suspect it is a zinc chloride lo-temp soft solder flux, not a borax-based hi-temp flux. A pox on the manufacturers who decided to call lead-free solder "silver bearing" solder just to confuse folks into thinking it's really silver solder... Edited April 24, 2007 by Alan Longmire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Schehr Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Thanks for the good replies so far. Ive gotten almost the whole habaki to glow orange and yet the solder just sticks to it. Not putting the solder under the flame does seem to work better but still not helping much. About how long does it take you guys to heat it up before it is ok to apply the solder? The flux I use I believe is called Sterling premium solder which I bought from Home Depot. Also, the flux seems to burn away before I have a chance to melt the solder, any tips on how to use the flux better? Can anyone recommend a better flux for me to use? Im currently working on a new habaki for a katana I have and Im including a bohi on the habaki, so Id really hate to screw this one up due to the brazing. haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus Hernandez Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Spencer, I doubt the flux that you are using will be good beyond 500-800 degrees. Get to a welding supply store and get flux meant for brazing not soldering. It should have a working range up in to the 1100-1200 degrees. Let us know how is goes. Enjoy life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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