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Would anyone have any idea what type of steel this is i had 2 samples tested and this is what they came up with. Thanks in advance for any help.

Bob

 

C 0.630%

Mn 0.44%

P 0.012%

S 0.001%

Si 0.22%

Cu 0.02%

Ni 0.74%

Cr 0.43%

Mo 0.072%

Sn 0.002%

V 0.002%

Ca 0.002%

B 0.0002%

Ti 0.001%

N 0.023%

Fe 97.36%

Ce 0.855%

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Looks very close to the 1070/1075xx steel i use.Hardens well and forges smoothly.Descent hamons too.

N'T McAhron Sqwaukin Vulture Verrinder

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Looks very close to the 1070/1075xx steel i use.Hardens well and forges smoothly.Descent hamons too.

 

If it is 10xx steel it would only have the first 4 elements on the top and fe. I have looked on a lot of sites and cannot find anything that has the elements that are in this steel that match.

Thanks for your input.

Bob

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If it is 10xx steel it would only have the first 4 elements on the top and fe. I have looked on a lot of sites and cannot find anything that has the elements that are in this steel that match.

Thanks for your input.

Bob

 

 

Not necessarily. The proportions of the other elements listed (with the exceptions noted below) are well within the range of tramp/trace elements found in all steel, especially modern remelts. There's just no such thing as totally clean 10xx steel that has only iron, carbon, manganese, phosphorus, and sulfur.

 

That said, I don't think it's 1070. The nickel and chrome are a little high, as is the silicon. Not quite a 41xx series, nor yet an S series... The cerium worries me. That is one that shouldn't be in there at all. :huh:

 

Now that I've probably revealed my ignorance, let's wait and see what the metallurgists have to say about it. :lol:

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The cerium worries me. That is one that shouldn't be in there at all.

 

That had me scratching my head, too, so I googled "cerium steel alloy" and found it is used in low alloy and stainless steels,

"The prime purpose of mischmetal [Rare Earth Elements refined without totally separating out the different REEs] addition during steel alloy production is to tie up sulfur impurities, through the high affinity of Ln's for O and S, as stable lanthanide oxysulfides. "

...and maybe it helps with corrosion resistance in the stainless.

What's the provenance and morphology of this mystery metal?

:)

Jomsvikingar Raða Ja!

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Well i guess i showed what i know,not a whole lot about steel. Or at least not as much as i thought. Thanks for tuning me in.

That said i would be interested to know how i should heat treat it as well. If any one has any opinions jump in here.

Bob

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That had me scratching my head, too, so I googled "cerium steel alloy" and found it is used in low alloy and stainless steels,

"The prime purpose of mischmetal [Rare Earth Elements refined without totally separating out the different REEs] addition during steel alloy production is to tie up sulfur impurities, through the high affinity of Ln's for O and S, as stable lanthanide oxysulfides. "

...and maybe it helps with corrosion resistance in the stainless.

What's the provenance and morphology of this mystery metal

:)

Thanks for commenting I started the last post than had to say goodby to a friend. The steel is in strips about 16" long ranging from 1" to 2 1/2" X 3/16 anda box full was given to me the said steel was suposedly from a closing factory that made ice skate blades. It certainly acts like a 10xx steel and it rusts fast.

Bob

Edited by Robert Mayo
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There's just no such thing as totally clean 10xx steel that has only iron, carbon, manganese, phosphorus, and sulfur.

:o Whoa, just a sec there - I was distracted by the Cerium, so I missed this - Alan, my steel is totally clean 10xx, and if you start smelting, you can have some too! :D

 

Iceskates, interesting - but not extremely helpful, except they probably would be using 10xx or whatever was cheapest on most skates. I don't know how much blade steel R&D goes on at the Olympic level, if any, but that's got to be a tiny market.

:huh:

Jomsvikingar Raða Ja!

http://vikingswordsmith.com

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Hmmm, I don't know how to place the Cerium, but the rest looks like 8660. I have a batch of 8670 that matches everything else, but .72 Carbon, not.63

 

Ken Nelson

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:o Whoa, just a sec there - I was distracted by the Cerium, so I missed this - Alan, my steel is totally clean 10xx, and if you start smelting, you can have some too! :D

 

:P:P:P

 

Betcha it isn't! Gotta be some trace elements in there somewhere, unless you're smelting chemically pure iron oxide powder with chemically pure carbon instead of plain ol' iron ore and charcoal. (ducks, covers, and is happy there's 3500 miles between Johnson city and Oakland) :lol:

 

Good insight, Ken.

 

Ice skates? :huh: I'd have thought they'd be stainless, but then I'm from the south. We don't do winter sports here, unless you count riding an innertube through snowy mud towed behind an ATV. ;)

 

Maybe this stuff was used for the steel shanks of the skates and not the blades?

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Hmmm, I don't know how to place the Cerium, but the rest looks like 8660. I have a batch of 8670 that matches everything else, but .72 Carbon, not.63

 

Ken Nelson

Ken welcome to the forum and thanks for the info. Can you tell me what the heat treat specs are for 8660 or 8670.

Thanks Bob

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Betcha it isn't! Gotta be some trace elements in there somewhere

:D

Yeah, I just meant less odd stuff than remelted, reremelted 'shoehorn it into the spec' steels...clean like pre-industrial steel, as it were.

I think I remember seeing some chrome plating on skate blades...

Jomsvikingar Raða Ja!

http://vikingswordsmith.com

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:D

Yeah, I just meant less odd stuff than remelted, reremelted 'shoehorn it into the spec' steels...clean like pre-industrial steel, as it were.

I think I remember seeing some chrome plating on skate blades...

 

I think the new skate blades are some kind of stainless but when i played hockey many moons ago the first thing you did once your skates where off was wipe down the blades or they rusted before you got out of the dressing room.

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Here's the info I have right now, Which I got from a distributer of the steel, but I am trying to get a little more information from one of the steel mills that make it.

 

Austinize: 1550-1630 soak 10min

Harden in oil

temper 350-400 for RC60-58

 

It actually works much like L6, but is easier to aneal

 

Hope this helps

Ken

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Robert,

 

I also tried a blade from my old Bauer skates back in the late 70's. You're right about the rust but the sparks were more orange and the blade never did get hard in the quench. I don't recall seeing skates with chrome plating either.

R.J

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Here's the info I have right now, Which I got from a distributer of the steel, but I am trying to get a little more information from one of the steel mills that make it.

 

Austinize: 1550-1630 soak 10min

Harden in oil

temper 350-400 for RC60-58

 

It actually works much like L6, but is easier to aneal

 

Hope this helps

Ken

It sure does help Ken thanks alot for the info.

Bob

 

Robert,

 

I also tried a blade from my old Bauer skates back in the late 70's. You're right about the rust but the sparks were more orange and the blade never did get hard in the quench. I don't recall seeing skates with chrome plating either.

 

I think that after the first sharpening the chrome would start to peel like the old bumpers on cars. Well this steel hardens up with no problem but i like to know what i am using, at least then there is not as much trial and error.

Bob

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Regarding "clean preindustrial steels" - every ore body had associated trace elements with it that would show up all the way into the final steel. In the late 70's we could identify steel from customers as to whether it was ours or not by the residual (trace) element analysis. We were producing by blast furnace, BOF route and the ore bodies we used gave a consistent trace element "footprint".

 

Admittedly, that footprints been muddied a lot with the industry change to electric arc furnace and extensive scrap recycling. On the other hand, about the only way to truly get pure metals, such as pure iron, pure chromium, etc. is via very expensive multistage refining processes. Of course, you also have to define "pure" - is it 3-9's, 4-9's, 5-9's or? To clarify, 3-9's is 99.9% which means you have .1% total of impurities. 4-9's is 99.99% or a total impurity level of .01%. As analytical methods have gotten better, we get better at identifying trace elements at lower and lower levels. Which means we can now find traces of elements that we weren't able to before - do we begin to subtract those now?

 

For example, the most pure chromium readily availble is vacuum grade chromium - it used to be 99.98 % pure Cr and was about $4 a lb in 1995. Production route was to take high carbon ferrochrome, mill it dissolve in acid, filter and then plate out as electrolytic Cr at 99.2 % purity. That would be milled again, processed with reduction agents and a binder, made into pellets, and placed in a high temperature (2900+ degrees F) vacuum furnace for about 2 weeks in a solid state reaction. It would then be analyzed to verify purity, which included checking for about 30 different trace elements down to the ppb or less range.

 

You just don't get pure without a lot of work and money - any of those preindustrial steels will have some level of trace elements, including Cu, Mn, and who knows what else without analyzing them.

 

Having said all that, a steel with a level of .855 Cerium is one I've never encountered before - strikes me as more than a bit odd.

 

Give me a sample of your "pure iron" and I'm 100% certain I'll find it contains elements other than carbon, sulfur, phosphorous, manganese, and iron.

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Regarding "clean preindustrial steels" - every ore body had associated trace elements with it that would show up all the way into the final steel. In the late 70's we could identify steel from customers as to whether it was ours or not by the residual (trace) element analysis. We were producing by blast furnace, BOF route and the ore bodies we used gave a consistent trace element "footprint".

 

Admittedly, that footprints been muddied a lot with the industry change to electric arc furnace and extensive scrap recycling. On the other hand, about the only way to truly get pure metals, such as pure iron, pure chromium, etc. is via very expensive multistage refining processes. Of course, you also have to define "pure" - is it 3-9's, 4-9's, 5-9's or? To clarify, 3-9's is 99.9% which means you have .1% total of impurities. 4-9's is 99.99% or a total impurity level of .01%. As analytical methods have gotten better, we get better at identifying trace elements at lower and lower levels. Which means we can now find traces of elements that we weren't able to before - do we begin to subtract those now?

 

For example, the most pure chromium readily availble is vacuum grade chromium - it used to be 99.98 % pure Cr and was about $4 a lb in 1995. Production route was to take high carbon ferrochrome, mill it dissolve in acid, filter and then plate out as electrolytic Cr at 99.2 % purity. That would be milled again, processed with reduction agents and a binder, made into pellets, and placed in a high temperature (2900+ degrees F) vacuum furnace for about 2 weeks in a solid state reaction. It would then be analyzed to verify purity, which included checking for about 30 different trace elements down to the ppb or less range.

 

You just don't get pure without a lot of work and money - any of those preindustrial steels will have some level of trace elements, including Cu, Mn, and who knows what else without analyzing them.

 

Having said all that, a steel with a level of .855 Cerium is one I've never encountered before - strikes me as more than a bit odd.

 

Give me a sample of your "pure iron" and I'm 100% certain I'll find it contains elements other than carbon, sulfur, phosphorous, manganese, and iron.

 

Kevin the guy that had this steel checked for me said that he had never even heard of cerium before than it came up my samples and another sample from another maker in the same week. Exellent info thankyou for joining in on the thread.

Bob

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The foot- or fingerprint for the ore I use has Ti in the couple thousandths range, V, Co, Cu, Ni in the couple hundredths, Cr in the couple tenths. Silicon is variable, tenths or hundredths, but always there. Usually nothing else. Clean, in response to Alan’s mention of ‘tramp elements’, but not pure! ;)

Speaking of footprints, I was theorizing a while back on finding the trace element fingerprint of meteoric metal in old Indonesian blades, wondering if one could notice a specific meteorite by looking at the iridium, gallium germanium and cobalt ratios, even after the meteoric metal had been diluted down with terrestrially smelted metal, when I noticed that for rocks, one can get analysis down to a few PPM or PPB for a slate of elements as long as your arm (for sixty bucks, cheap!). I have yet to find a lab that will do more than the standard twenty or so steel alloy elements, does anyone know of a lab that does more? It would be cool to have a full work-up of my steel, someday.

I think the meteoritic scientists use expensive, university-funded INAA to study E.T. irons.

Jomsvikingar Raða Ja!

http://vikingswordsmith.com

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Jeff - no good line on inexpensive mass spectrometry analysis. We used to go outside for minute traces in the vacuum grade chrome, but it wasn't cheap. I currently send some materials to outside labs for trace element analysis now, and it's usually in the $150 to $250 price range, depending on how many additional elements I need to have analyzed. I'm usually sending material to certified labs that use ICP analytical equipment to get the traces.

 

Regarding the meteorite trace - if the amount of dilution could be known, or estimated you can back calculate to a composition, the accuracy suffers, and if you don't know dilution levels and materials it becomes even more of a guessing game.

 

I did some additional cheking on cerium - another use is to produce nodular cast iron, changing the morphology of the graphite in the cast iron from flakes to more spherical particles. I'm not certain of the amounts used, or how it might carry over if melted in an EAF as part of a charge to make a heat of steel.

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If you look for it, it is there....Often, if you ask for verification of a steel they give you C, Mn, S, P, Ni, Cr.....if you ask for a full analysis - they give you all the tramps.

 

One of the problems with the steel shortage (after the excess and all the mills closed down), is that people are now getting steel from a lot of places that no one knew made steel. Because of the high demand, mills in Sri Lanka and others are providing steel.

 

Cerium is often used for desulfurization - because many of the third-world mills do not have adequate controls, or are created by BOF or open-hearth, the S and P control is sometimes difficult. So they resort to in-ladle desulfurization before they pour the ingot. If they have a lot of S or P - in goes a lot of Ce. They more than likely do not have a continuous caster....

 

Equations, compensating for chemistry, can be found in Timken's "Practical Guide for Metallurgists". These equations allow you to calculate the important temperatures for your steel - Ms, A1, A2, A3, etc....

 

Hope that helps.

 

Scott

Edited by kb0fhp

D. Scott MacKenzie, PhD

Heat Treating (Aluminum and Steel)

Quenching (Water, Polymer, Oil, Salt and Mar-Tempering)

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Thanks Scott it is very usefull not just to me but i'm sure to a lot of other folks as well.

Here is a link to the pdf for those interested.

Bob

 

http://www.timken.com/timken_ols/steel/handbook/

Edited by Robert Mayo
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If you do a search, it is also on this site someplace...I put it together so it is one pdf file.....

D. Scott MacKenzie, PhD

Heat Treating (Aluminum and Steel)

Quenching (Water, Polymer, Oil, Salt and Mar-Tempering)

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