Dendritic Steel

[Richard Furrer]

if we don't stop it here what's next, pattern welded steel? Forging? Stock removal? We need to squash this stupid patent.

 

Actually Mike, there are patents on PW steel.

One on making the ladder pattern and another on general pattern developement...........

 

Patent law is an odd thing as is the review process.

 

Ric

[Richard Furrer]

I agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts, Kevin, but for one point. Why should we stand idly by and wait for a suit to appear, when there are avenues open now that could get this quashed and thereby ensure that the path is open for all, without ever having to worry about lawsuits and threats of lawsuits? Mr. Watson's pending patents may well be currently in the public comment phase of things, when information such as you and others have already posted about the prevalence of banding in the steel world could serve to kill the application before the patent is granted. Reexamination is another avenue for patents that have already been granted. Do we really want people to be free to threaten and potentially cause financial strain to those that don't deserve it? Would it not be better to take that power away from them? I realize that any suit based on what we've seen so far would likely get thrown out pretty quickly, but you still have to pay the lawyers.

 

I'm really amazed that there don't seem to be any negative repercussions for bringing frivolous suits. Perhaps if there were, we wouldn't have to worry about these patents at all.

 

/steve

 

Steve,

Good ideas,

SO

What is the patent pending number? Anyone seen it? Is it even real?

 

As to alloy banding and pattern development and getting the word out:

Why should we educate Daniel Watson on how to improve his attacks/threats on others by educating him on a public forum? Why tip the cards and show our hand when at the moment it is nothing more than words?

I have a rather large stack of information on the subject at hand and am familiar with the related fields of study

HOWEVER,

the fist step has been done in that Tim Lively has not remained silent

the second step is that the word be spread of what has been done/threatened

the third is that somebody get me the patent pending number so I can read it over

the fourth step

well...that depends on a few things.

 

The ONLY question to be asked is........."Daniel, what is the patent number?"

Get me that answer folks; its all I need.

 

Ric

[Steve R]

Hi Ric, here you go...

 

Daniel Watson's issued patents:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...wood&d=PTXT

 

Daniel Watson's patent applications:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser...wood&d=PG01

 

Haven't had a chance to read them all yet so I don't know if they apply or not, but I think this is it. I'll do a few more searches and see if anything else turns up.

 

cheers,

/steve

[Richard Furrer]

Hi Ric, here you go...

 

Daniel Watson's issued patents:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?...wood&d=PTXT

 

Daniel Watson's patent applications:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser...wood&d=PG01

 

Haven't had a chance to read them all yet so I don't know if they apply or not, but I think this is it. I'll do a few more searches and see if anything else turns up.

 

cheers,

/steve

Steve,

Are there any others?

If not then.....

 

Tim,

Go to sleep...its over...you win.

Call me as an expert witness to the deposition, but I think it will not go that far.

I do encourage you to get the tequila......and drink it yourself and do a victory dance with the Mrs.

 

Truly a tempest in a teacup......and the tea ain't all that good anyway.

 

 

As an aside:

As to techno-wootz being wootz...... It is my opinion it is not. I have read only one paper on that material and the abstract write-up is flawed on a fundamental level...the science which Dr. Eric Taleff did is sound and good and I have no fault with it (and have told Eric so myself..good guy...good scientist..as is his research team there at the U of Texas--Austin), but the presentation of the abstract, and its conclusion, is flawed.

If there are any other papers on the subject I would like to read them.

 

Ric

 

Richard Furrer

Sturgeon Bay, WI

[Kerrystagmer]

I have had Mr Watson screaming in my face while on MY property telling me he was going to sue me. That was about 15 years ago and we are now on speaking terms.

 

He seems to actually have mellowed considerably over the years. Get him to be specific about what he claims is his patent and then he MUST show loss due to your use of the actual process.

 

I can't believe he would think it in his best interest to place himself where there are posts all over the internet where the formost names in blade metal research are calling him out. He just isnt stupid, perhaps over zealous in how he sells his 'sizzle'. I know he doenst want to look the fool, no one really does...

 

Isnt his patent directly linked to the cryo process or am I remembering incorrectly? I havent read it in quite sometime and frankly cant be bothered right now.

 

Some of the work coming off of his sales floor is really interesting and well made, and some appears to me to be complete crap. I'm sure that is exactly how people feel about me as well!!

 

He has made quite a run of selling interesting work at interesting prices, shame it keeps coming back to this unfriendlyness.

[Howard Clark]

"He has made quite a run of selling interesting work at interesting prices, shame it keeps coming back to this unfriendlyness."

 

 

Yeah, it does say something, does it not ?

I'm with Ric on this. No worries, Mate. There is nothing to fear.

[Beau Erwin]

*laughs* I was reading over it a little to see if I could learn more about how to get the banding and segregation and that was a tad confusing not to mention hard to follow.

 

Last two blades I finished are both banded, which I'm guessing would be due to the steel, it was an old crowbar.

[Sam Salvati]

Steve,

Are there any others?

If not then.....

 

Tim,

Go to sleep...its over...you win.

Call me as an expert witness to the deposition, but I think it will not go that far.

I do encourage you to get the tequila......and drink it yourself and do a victory dance with the Mrs.

 

Truly a tempest in a teacup......and the tea ain't all that good anyway.

As an aside:

As to techno-wootz being wootz...... It is my opinion it is not. I have read only one paper on that material and the abstract write-up is flawed on a fundamental level...the science which Dr. Eric Taleff did is sound and good and I have no fault with it (and have told Eric so myself..good guy...good scientist..as is his research team there at the U of Texas--Austin), but the presentation of the abstract, and its conclusion, is flawed.

If there are any other papers on the subject I would like to read them.

 

Ric

 

Richard Furrer

Sturgeon Bay, WI

 

 

Ric, when I first read this thread I knew out of all the people who could help one of the most knowledgeable would be you. Cheers I'll rasie a glass of tequila to you I am honored to have met you.

Edited November 23, 2007 by Sam Salvati

[Richard Furrer]

Ric, when I first read this thread I knew out of all the people who could help one of the most knowledgeable would be you. Cheers I'll rasie a glass of tequila to you I am honored to have met you.

 

One of many Sam...many.

 

Ric

[Kevin R. Cashen]

…Call me as an expert witness to the deposition, but I think it will not go that far…

 

Gee Ric you still feeling left out on that , since it is all a matter of legal public record there would be no harm in letting the cat out of the bag as to why I chimed in when this thread appeared. When SFI was sued Ric and I were both called upon to be expert witness' in helping to make sense of bladesmithing information and claims. Ric didn’t get called to deposition, I did. Poor Ric has felt slighted every since although I have assured him that he didn’t miss a thing; I did find out more about this nasty business than I ever cared to know.

 

But back then I did have people ask why I was getting involved, when almost nobody else wanted to expose themselves to such a negative atmosphere. For me it was simple, a law suit is threatened and suddenly everybody muzzles themselves to cover their back sides. Facts then get sorted into two piles, the safe ones and the ones we can’t talk about. There are places on the internet where the mere mention of this topic will get immediately deleted out of fear. Is that how we want to live?

 

I saw the threat and knew a Pandora’s box had been opened on our friendly little corner of the world. I felt the right thing to do was to oppose it any way I could. Then for peace and a feeling of security it was all quietly walked away from. Now the chickens have come home to roost. This is the price you pay for security bought with silence and not getting involved. Heck the silent treatment worked so well Tim didn’t even know there was a danger when walked face first into it. But he deserves our gratitude for being made of different stuff, he decided to put a lighted sign over the pitfall he stumbled into so other travelers need not fall.

[Mike Turner]

Kevin and Ric, as a newer smith it is guys like you we look up to for guidance and direction. I am honored to have had you two step up to the plate for what we love to do and support Tim and the knife making community, I can only hope that more will do as you have done and not be silent when a bully comes a knocking. My hat is off to you sir's. Also to those that have stood up Thank you, lets protect our passion.

Edited November 24, 2007 by Mike Turner

[Sam Salvati]

One of many Sam...many.

 

Ric

 

 

Oh of course, and i am sorry if i came across as mentioning only you as a contributor. I should of course mention everyone across many forums who have supported Tim and done the work and research to help, i love that there exists such a great community. Sometimes my words dont's likes to comes out right.

Edited November 24, 2007 by Sam Salvati

[Matt Bower]

Steve R, congrats on finding those applications. I looked, and somehow I wasn't able to find them.

 

The fact that none of his patents or published applications seems to cover banding is part of the problem here. As far as I know, the earliest point at which a third party can challenge a patent application is when it's published. I asked a patent lawyer I know a little to look into that. He's primarily a litigator who handles infringement claims, so the application/publication stage isn't really his area of expertise. But he said he'd talk to some of the patent prosecution guys in his office next week, and get back to me. I'll report on what he has to say.

[Steve R]

Thanks, glad I could be of some assistance in this. We may, however, still have a problem...

 

Mr. Watson has now claimed that he has unpublished patent applications for his method/methods of making what he refers to as wootz, and that the patents and applications which we have been able to find thus far are not the ones that apply to the current situation. I don't know patent law well enough to know if there is any way to find an unpublished patent application, though I am looking into it. Doesn't seem right that patents could be granted without any ability of the public to challenge the application, but there you are. I believe this is one of the major differences between US patent law and the rest of the world.

 

Assuming he is attempting to patent methods of alloy and/or carbide banding, I think these could still be challenged on the grounds of prior art and/or obviousness (if a method is deemed to be obvious to someone skilled in the related discipline, it invalidates the patent). We may have to wait until they are granted, however.

 

Doesn't look like this is quite over yet.

 

/steve

 

p.s. Thanks TONS to Ric and Kevin (and others) who have stepped up with their knowledge and expertise in this field. If we can kill these patents, it will be due to the efforts of folks like yourselves who see the inherent danger and are equipped to challenge it.

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Like Ric I would suggest that we are just two among many who are always happy to share information and educate, and one doesn’t have to come from a position of sitting on a pile of $5 words to do so. Every time somebody introduces a new question, shares what happened in their last blade, or posts an image of something in their steel and wants to talk about what it could be, our collective knowledge keeps moving forward. I would like to see that continue as strongly as ever. I haven’t given any information that isn’t incredibly common, old and outdated on the topic (remember industry long ago worked out ways to minimize alloy banding). All I have done is try to encourage and urge folks to keep this situation from continuing on as one of blade makings dirty little secrets and instead make it a clearly seen problem that we need to work on, so we can be free to discuss it as much as we please in the future.

[Richard Furrer]

Thanks, glad I could be of some assistance in this. We may, however, still have a problem...

 

Mr. Watson has now claimed that he has unpublished patent applications for his method/methods of making what he refers to as wootz, and that the patents and applications which we have been able to find thus far are not the ones that apply to the current situation. I don't know patent law well enough to know if there is any way to find an unpublished patent application, though I am looking into it. Doesn't seem right that patents could be granted without any ability of the public to challenge the application, but there you are. /steve

 

 

So..I take it word has spread of my statement?

Steve..not only is it not "right"..it is not how the law works. Patent law is an odd thing...too many patents applied for...everyone demanding fast service so they can cash in on the patent..peer review and contestation is often not done...great pressure not to hinder business growth etc.. and as a result they often rely on the lawyer who put the patent application together to do all the research and make sure it is a good/grantable patent...BUT its the lawyer who is getting paid to submit the thing and it is the best interest to get it accepted so....

There is a thing called a "File Wrapper" which states all the info on the processes related to and surrounding the actual patent applied for so the claimant has to submit info on related prior art and other pertinent info such as why this process is "novel"...this is what the reviewer looks at...they rarely do independent investigation.

The system is also set up to have folk contest the patent so there are checks to the system. If its a good patent them it will stand. A patent pending allows certain rights to the holder prior to the patent being granted. SO, it is in the patent pending holder's best interest to let all know they have such a thing...for just this type of thing....Well, where is it Daniel?

 

At any rate, no patent does anything except allow a person to sue and the FIRST thing one does is challenge the validity of the patent SO..if a claim of infringement is made I would think it the responsibility of the claimant top PROVE the infringement...i.e. What is the Patent/Patent Pending number? Every patent and patent pending has a number..its on the application..if it submitted it has a number..it may not be searchable online yet, but a request filed in paper has a record.

 

Well, I am sure that since the claim of infringement was made publicly, that Watson or some rep of Angelsword would be more than happy to post the patent pending method which was infringed upon. Seems a simple matter....something like "here is the patent pending and see...right there is the method and therefor that is the infringement and here is the Pat Pend number so you can look it up yourself".

At the very least some proof has to be SHOWN that there is a patent or patent pending.....claiming wrong is one thing, but proof is needed here.

 

Just to clarify things before they get quoted and miss-quoted over the net:

I am NOT "gunning for" Watson or Angelsword...I am interested in EVERYONE in this business doing the upfront thing in both production and business practices. There is no need to divulge any "secrets" or hard won techniques...most who know me know that there are things I do not discuss in public related to what I specifically "DO" on some of my work. This is not what I am referring to here. What I am referring to here is that a person wanted to stop another from doing a technique because they claim to own the rights to that technique...well the claim was made and now the proof is needed or the accused (Tim Lively) will, can and should get back to production.

It is far too easy for all of us to just sit by and say "that is not how it works", but when claims are made the proof supporting those claims need to be stated also (or at least have them available for review) the hard thing is to stand and ask questions and take the brunt of the result. Tim Lively has done this and should be supported for the action.

Tim,

You are not in the path of this any longer or at least not alone. If a deluge is coming I'll build the boat you bring a bailing bucket....lets ride this out.

 

BUT..the next step is for the proof to come out..the claim has been made, now prove the infringement. Daniel Watson..it is not high noon..this is not a samurai flick..its a tempest in tea cup and you have not shown infringement so the next move of yours is not another empty threat, personal attack or claim of patent......simply show the paperwork and all this ends quickly.

I am not holier than thou; I've been wrong in the past and will be again in the future...I call it learning.....so teach me.

Let me read your patent and see how I am wrong.

 

 

Ric

 

Richard Furrer

Sturgeon Bay, WI

[Greg Thomas Obach]

to be honest ...its nothing new.. wootz is dogged by patents that just don't float... in my opinion, its just the patent office not scrutinizing these claims and letting them trickle through...

-- their probably over worked and under payed like so many are... ( let the courts decide what is what...)

 

- and propped up with the " wootz is a lost process" Myth... put out by those who have most to gain from it..

 

maybe i'm abit negative about the subject... but all these so called patents have served is to hold back regular folks in the states from enjoying some ancient steel making traditions.. .. I really wonder how many folks would be making steel now if they weren't threatened in one way or the other.... ... definitely not a clear path to progress...

 

 

here is a post on some nice banding

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showth...highlight=wootz

 

 

this dialog on the subject is really generating alot of interest........wow.... it seems that its getting alot of attention on many of the forums.. ... i hope this positive momentum will let the community take back some ground it lost to these patent characters..

 

 

G

[Greg Thomas Obach]

Hi Ric

 

you make some golden points.. ... there should be some disclosure here...

I'll echo it... where are the numbers ???

 

maybe watson has some kind of military patent with TOP SECRET stamped on it.. sheesh

 

I have no idea what the point is in this patent..... its futile and bizarre.. what will it gain..

 

i'm gonna shut up now... i hate to be negative online.. there just too much of it and i don't need the bad karma

 

 

G

[Tim Lively]

Possible patent numbers to check out.

 

20050077089

20050047989

20040265647

20040261917

 

Patent Search

 

Patent Searches

Edited November 24, 2007 by Tim Lively

[Richard Furrer]

Possible patent numbers to check out.

 

20050077089

20050047989

20040265647

20040261917

 

Patent Search

 

Patent Searches

 

Tim,

Those had been listed by Steve R in the posts above...they matter not.

 

Any others?

Ric

[Steve Sells]

Since it appears my post here two days ago didn't show up I will re-state that: tho I am not a rich man, I will put up a blade or two to pay for legal counsil if it come to that.

 

I have read "fluffy's" side of this at his site; as well as Tims, here and at SFI. It does seem strange that someone would try to patent alloy banding, but he is trying to hold onto "suz-zero quenching in the same chamber as the heat" for his so far, only granted patent, so who knows.

 

I am behind you Tim, along with many others in the community. You do NOT stand alone. So get back to making pretty blades

Edited November 25, 2007 by Steve Sells

[Tim Lively]

Oops, sorry, Im jumping from one forum to the next and I forget who said what when.

[Mike Turner]

Tim I found this maybe of use,

 

 

http://www.ideavelopment.com/patentpending.html

[kencornett]

I just checked his site. and it was as I thought. He cant sue you tim, but he can threaten to sue you in the future should his patents (God forbide!) be granted. All he was doing was blowing hot smoke, because he has nothing to back up a law suit against you with!. Sell the knife! make a ton more! hell if I had the cash I would order one myself!

 

From what I have read and what I saw this morning , you dont really have nothing to worry about. Maybe with all the attention from the fora this topic is getting, this BS patent will get reviewed and turned over.

 

thanks for bringing this to the publics attention tim, keep the forge fires bright!

 

God Bless

Kenneth

[Matt Bower]

Steve R,

 

Unpublished applications are meaningless. I could file an application for the previously mentioned thermal chunkification of water process tomorrow; that wouldn't mean you couldn't still make ice cubes in your freezer. If that's all "fluffy" has, it's as Ken said: he's got nothing. He probably knows that. That doesn't prevent him from making threats, though -- or possibly even from filing a frivolus suit, if it comes to that.