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Got some 1095


Craig Hashimoto

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Got some of Aldo's 1095

 

Certs as follows:

 

C. .97

M. .48

S. .25

Cr. .12

V. .029

 

 

I'm not an expert on steel composition.... any thoughts on heat treatment and the results I can expect based on the certs?

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Craig, 1095 is a plain carbon steel. It just has manganese in it as a deoxydizer. The data that you show in your post would indicate that what you have is W2. It will give you a little better depth of hardening and control of grain growth. I'd start forging, if you forge, at a little higher temp, bright orange or yellow. Even though this is a water hardening steel, oil is still recommended due to the thin cross secton of a blade. I would suggest that you start temporing at 400 degrees F and go from there.

 

Doug Lester

HELP...I'm a twenty year old trapped in the body of an old man!!!

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Craig, 1095 is a plain carbon steel. It just has manganese in it as a deoxydizer. The data that you show in your post would indicate that what you have is W2. It will give you a little better depth of hardening and control of grain growth. I'd start forging, if you forge, at a little higher temp, bright orange or yellow. Even though this is a water hardening steel, oil is still recommended due to the thin cross secton of a blade. I would suggest that you start temporing at 400 degrees F and go from there.

 

Doug Lester

 

Thanks Doug, I really appreciate the response... made me remember something and go look again....

I've been reading on this subject and have found in at least one book that 1095, W1 and W2 are very similar...

"W1 tool steel has the same basic chemistry as AISI 1095. The difference between them, besides price, is the manufacturing method. Tool steels are generally manufactured under very tight rules concerning percentage of scrap versus raw material, and grain size of the annealed material is controlled with greater accuracy. Other than this they are for all practical purposed the same steel." from HEAT TREATMENT, SELECTION AND APPLICATION OF TOOL STEELS 2nd Edition by William Bryson.

According to this book

As quenched would give Rockwell C of 67

300F - 64

400F - 61

500F - 59

600F - 55

 

Still reading up on it... but I guess that would vary manual to manual... still need to cross reference and then of course... fire up the forge and test... :0)

 

Thanks for the recommendation... was looking for a good starting point....

 

Craig

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It really doesn't have enough vanadium to be W-2.

Listings I've seen for W-2 have ~0.20% of vanadium.

 

The 1095 here only has 0.029% which is quite a bit less.

 

I'd say it'd be more on par with 1095

 

W-1 is listed as having half the Mn that this 1095 has.

 

Verhoeven has 1095 listed here in his book as 0.95 C and 0.75 Mn

 

So you could say it's 1095 with a little less Mn, or W-1 with a little more. =P

Edited by EdgarFigaro

Beau Erwin

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It really doesn't have enough vanadium to be W-2.

Listings I've seen for W-2 have ~0.20% of vanadium.

 

The 1095 here only has 0.029% which is quite a bit less.

 

I'd say it'd be more on par with 1095

 

W-1 is listed as having half the Mn that this 1095 has.

 

Verhoeven has 1095 listed here in his book as 0.95 C and 0.75 Mn

 

So you could say it's 1095 with a little less Mn, or W-1 with a little more. =P

 

Thanks Edgar... I just recieved Verhoeven's book... I'll check it out... any thoughts on a good heat treat formula based on the composition?

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Craig, good luck with Verhoeven's book, I'm still trying to get through it. It has some good info but I decided that I need to give my gray matter a little rest for a while. I don't want to get into a pi$$ing contest with anyone but the vanadium level that you list is almost the same as that Jim Hrisoulas lists in his book on pattern welded steel and the chromium is just a little lower that what he lists. Every supplier has a little bit different formula and it may make a difference whether or not they are actually making the steel (which doesn't happen in the US anymore) or if they're recycling it. I have read some post where people have sent steel off for analysis and found that it was more than a bit off from what the supplier said it was. Sometimes even the suppliers don't even know that they are not getting from THEIR suppliers what they think that they are getting. That happened with Admiral and the L6 that they were carring. What you got should make good knives and as Edgar said, the steels are pretty close anyway. Heat treating can undoubtedly make a bigger difference than the constituent components of the steel can.

 

Doug Lester

HELP...I'm a twenty year old trapped in the body of an old man!!!

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umm, just a quick q'... how do you get steel analyzed?

thanks, and goodluck!

- Kenon

http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=8973

Aldo had it tested, looks like good stuff, and just the right size for a project I've been thinking about...

 

I'd suggest tempering starting at 450f, ramping up 15f until it will pass a brass rod test. This thread is for W2, which is almost the same thing... http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=8259

George Ezell, bladesmith

" How much useful knowledge is lost by the scattered forms in which it is ushered to the world! How many solitary students spend half their lives in making discoveries which had been perfected a century before their time, for want of a condensed exhibition of what is known."
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I'd just recently gotten the book as well. I've not yet gotten into it, I'd just popped it open to see if it had a listing on steels. The first bit I posted I'd gotten form the Complete Bladesmith. Things do vary a bit though.

 

I work in a fairly low tech environment currently, I'd like to get around to getting a pyrometer. Usually my heat treating consists of heating till nonmagnetic, soaking a few minutes, and quenching in veggie oil.

I would however like to get some fast quench oil at some point to play with.

 

So as for temps and such for a more controlled setting, I'm not certain.

A member with the name of Lamey had posted a blade he'd done recently of 1095, with a fantastic hamon.

He might be good to contact for details. He'd also posted one done with W-2.

http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showuser=497

 

I'm not seeing his chopper made from 1095 here on this site, must have been another he posted it on.

Beau Erwin

www.ErwinKnives.com

Custom knives

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http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=8973

Aldo had it tested, looks like good stuff, and just the right size for a project I've been thinking about...

 

I'd suggest tempering starting at 450f, ramping up 15f until it will pass a brass rod test. This thread is for W2, which is almost the same thing... http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=8259

 

Wow!... thanks for all the nice replys and suggestions... I'm hopeful on this batch from Aldo because it was supposedly all from the same "pour" (not sure if that's the right word)... so whatever it is... if I can figure out a heat treat for it... I can rely on using it for all the steel I got from this batch.... Aldo has been just fantastic to deal with ... so that's always a pleasure and plus....

 

I guess the bottom line is I have to fire up the forge, plug in the Paragon, work work work, take good notes and test test test.....

 

I've got Texaco A, Parks 50 and wanna try brine as well... I figure the Parks 50 will be the best or easiest... although the adventurous side of me wants to try the water quench....

 

I really appreciate all the comments, thoughts and opinions up to this point and any more that may still be out there... Thanks everyone...

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I'd just recently gotten the book as well. I've not yet gotten into it, I'd just popped it open to see if it had a listing on steels. The first bit I posted I'd gotten form the Complete Bladesmith. Things do vary a bit though.

 

I work in a fairly low tech environment currently, I'd like to get around to getting a pyrometer. Usually my heat treating consists of heating till nonmagnetic, soaking a few minutes, and quenching in veggie oil.

I would however like to get some fast quench oil at some point to play with.

 

So as for temps and such for a more controlled setting, I'm not certain.

A member with the name of Lamey had posted a blade he'd done recently of 1095, with a fantastic hamon.

He might be good to contact for details. He'd also posted one done with W-2.

http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showuser=497

 

I'm not seeing his chopper made from 1095 here on this site, must have been another he posted it on.

 

Thanks ... I'll check that out... and maybe contact him...

I just got my pyrometer as well... plan to install it tommorrow if I can and fire up my small forge... I've heard that careful, precise temperatures really make the difference... up till now... just been going by color and feel... and with my trusty old magnet... its been fun doing it that way... but thought it would be cool to check my eye against a pyrometer... probably still do things to "old" way on some projects...

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I would think it'd be better to start at 400oF and go up from there.

The 450 sounds more like a temp for the W-2 which with the vanadium is a little more red hard, so from what I gather it needs a slightly higher temp to get to the same Rc rating.

 

I was just doing a search and found some report Don had done where it said he was tempering at 415oF for 1095 blades.

http://www.dfoggknives.com/Metallurgical/M...AL%20REPORT.htm

 

Seems like someone had a site where you could type in the composition and it'd feed back a TTT diagram.

Edited by EdgarFigaro

Beau Erwin

www.ErwinKnives.com

Custom knives

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Stabilized Woods

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Craig, good luck with Verhoeven's book, I'm still trying to get through it. It has some good info but I decided that I need to give my gray matter a little rest for a while. I don't want to get into a pi$$ing contest with anyone but the vanadium level that you list is almost the same as that Jim Hrisoulas lists in his book on pattern welded steel and the chromium is just a little lower that what he lists. Every supplier has a little bit different formula and it may make a difference whether or not they are actually making the steel (which doesn't happen in the US anymore) or if they're recycling it. I have read some post where people have sent steel off for analysis and found that it was more than a bit off from what the supplier said it was. Sometimes even the suppliers don't even know that they are not getting from THEIR suppliers what they think that they are getting. That happened with Admiral and the L6 that they were carring. What you got should make good knives and as Edgar said, the steels are pretty close anyway. Heat treating can undoubtedly make a bigger difference than the constituent components of the steel can.

 

Doug Lester

 

Good point Doug... I really don't want this thread to drift into a "who's right and who's more right" competition... I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and opinions...

I'm finding even the manuals and books I'm reading vary... sheesh.... I've definitely read about steel varying and even bought some that turned out to be totally useless....

I guess the bottom line is I respect and appreciate everyone's thoughts...

Yup... been skipping around the chapters ever since I got Verhoeven books... just gotta find a quiet time and sit down with a pen and paper... maybe a few book markers and go through it from front to back cover....

 

Thanks again Doug....

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I'd noticed the same between books I've got, ones by Goddard and Hrisoulas and then other places, the comps do vary a fair bit.

If it's all from the same Batch, which it most likely is, since it's what Aldo had, I think he probably had the comp done at a lab. So what'd be neat is if we had that link to the site someone had where you type in the comp to get back heat treating info.

Beau Erwin

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Yeah I know what you mean, I'd like to kinda move up with the technology as well at some point.

I've got 4 bars of the 1095 as well from Aldo, but not yet gotten around to playing with it.

 

Well, hopefully I'll be able to play with it tommorrow.... gonna fit the pyrometer to the forge and start out with something simple like some flint strikers to get the feel of it... I'll try them in the parks and then some in brine.... then some simple blades later for treating and testing....

Got a bunch of W2 bar from Don... so maybe this will be good practice for when i get around to that.... :0)

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I'd forged out a few blades of W-2 recently, mine is from Tremblay though, and from what I heard from Burt Foster, that means it can have one of two C contents. *chuckles*

I need to get my butt back out to the shop and get working, have a variety of things I need to finish up, one being a W-2 santoku style blade.

Beau Erwin

www.ErwinKnives.com

Custom knives

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I'd forged out a few blades of W-2 recently, mine is from Tremblay though, and from what I heard from Burt Foster, that means it can have one of two C contents. *chuckles*

I need to get my butt back out to the shop and get working, have a variety of things I need to finish up, one being a W-2 santoku style blade.

 

Cool.... I gotta put the princess to bed.....

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Good topic Craig and great toss around of ideas. Sounds like there are a bunch of the new Verhoeven books floating. Any comments on changes/improvements since he released the pdf from Iowa State?

 

Take care, Craig

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Good topic Craig and great toss around of ideas. Sounds like there are a bunch of the new Verhoeven books floating. Any comments on changes/improvements since he released the pdf from Iowa State?

 

Take care, Craig

 

Hey Craig...

You're welcome to borrow and take a look at mine.... haven't gone through it all yet and haven't made a comparison... I thought there was some comments on the differences in the section on new books... you may want to check there.... we gotta get together for one of our rare "Hawaii Hammerins".... we can fool around with the 1095... got both propane forges ready to go... well... after I drill a hole and mount my pyrometer.... :0)

Did you forge today?

Craig

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The references for the W series of steel show that the carbon content can be all over the map. That is a very good reason to stick with one supplier and get the largest amount of steel at one time that you can afford and hope that it all came from the same batch. After you get into Verhoeven's book a couple of chapters you'll see how much difference the carbon content can make in steel performance.

 

I'll have to second the idea of starting at a slightly lower tempering temperature and adjusting up as needed. If the edge of the blade chips out during testing due to being too hard all you have to do is grind out the chips and raise the temperature of of your oven and try again. If it is too soft and stays deflection on the brass rod test, or whatever you use for testing, you have to take it back up above critical temp to convert the martinsite into austinite and requench which means that you have to deal with the fire scale all over again.

 

One thing that I learned a long time ago about this site is that even when you get contradictory advice different sources it doesn't mean that either one of them are wrong.

 

Doug Lester

HELP...I'm a twenty year old trapped in the body of an old man!!!

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This new batch of 1095 sounds great. 3/8" stock sounds like a handful though. I better get the hammer arm in better shape. I almost jumped at the new Verhoeven book, but the pdf is quite a mountain for me to digest. If the book is an 'improvement' then it'll be a must have reference for me.

 

Take care, Craig

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This new batch of 1095 sounds great. 3/8" stock sounds like a handful though. I better get the hammer arm in better shape. I almost jumped at the new Verhoeven book, but the pdf is quite a mountain for me to digest. If the book is an 'improvement' then it'll be a must have reference for me.

 

Take care, Craig

 

Check out the comments here... Howard Clark mentioned some additional info not in the PDF

http://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?showtopic=8949

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The references for the W series of steel show that the carbon content can be all over the map. That is a very good reason to stick with one supplier and get the largest amount of steel at one time that you can afford and hope that it all came from the same batch. After you get into Verhoeven's book a couple of chapters you'll see how much difference the carbon content can make in steel performance.

 

I'll have to second the idea of starting at a slightly lower tempering temperature and adjusting up as needed. If the edge of the blade chips out during testing due to being too hard all you have to do is grind out the chips and raise the temperature of of your oven and try again. If it is too soft and stays deflection on the brass rod test, or whatever you use for testing, you have to take it back up above critical temp to convert the martinsite into austinite and requench which means that you have to deal with the fire scale all over again.

 

One thing that I learned a long time ago about this site is that even when you get contradictory advice different sources it doesn't mean that either one of them are wrong.

 

Doug Lester

 

Great comment and advice... Thanks...

 

I agree... I've learned to appreciate everyone's perspective and thoughts... certainly helps with my own growth...

 

Thanks again to everyone who responded to my question.... this place is great!

 

Now off to install my pyrometer and hopefully some forge time ! :0)

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I would think it'd be better to start at 400oF and go up from there.

The 450 sounds more like a temp for the W-2 which with the vanadium is a little more red hard, so from what I gather it needs a slightly higher temp to get to the same Rc rating.

 

I was just doing a search and found some report Don had done where it said he was tempering at 415oF for 1095 blades.

http://www.dfoggknives.com/Metallurgical/M...AL%20REPORT.htm

 

Seems like someone had a site where you could type in the composition and it'd feed back a TTT diagram.

I think you may be correct... that's what I get for posting after midnight (after trying my own beer=better forging experiment). Thanks for the linked article, very interesting.

George Ezell, bladesmith

" How much useful knowledge is lost by the scattered forms in which it is ushered to the world! How many solitary students spend half their lives in making discoveries which had been perfected a century before their time, for want of a condensed exhibition of what is known."
Buffon


view some of my work

RelicForge on facebook
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