Knifemaker Interview Series, a biography workshop

[Richard Furrer]

Talking about wootz, I know you did a study trip to India together with a troupe of archaeometalurgists and scholars.

Toby Capwell told me about this trip when I visited the Wallace Collection and it was all I could do to keep a straight face repressing my urge to lie down on the floor pounding my fists in childish envy.

Would you like to share some impressions from this journey?

 

Toby is a good man...smart too.

The trip started as a "nany nany I'm going to India and you are not"...from Dr. Ann Feuerbach. If it were not for her I would have been on the floor with you. The trip was actually a meet and greet to begin an Indian training cooperative in Museum Preservation of arms and armour with several folk in major museums in the UK (The Wallace, V&A, Royal Armouries, The British Museum). It was organized by Robert Elgood, author and general good guy, and limited to 12 or so people who would benefit from the trip...there was a cancellation and on short notice I filled the spot...apparently the person who could not attend was sorely missed and I look forward to meeting him.

Most were either Museum people (conservators, art historians, metallurgists) or closely associated with arms (appraiser/auctioneer, blacksmith etc).

I had never been to The Wallace and Vince Evans said I need to go there so I planned a few extra days in London to split up a long flight, meet up with the other travelers and have a look around a city I had not visited in 15 years or so. I learned a lot and even found a few old knives off Bond Street. There was talk about meeting some clients and giving a demo, but I did not plan well enough and this did not occur.

 

It has been a year since the trip and some of the information is still filtering through my mind...the sights and sounds of India are unique I think and some of the arms I saw there I had never seen before. I can say that after seeing a thousand or so swords and holding a few there are patterns and generalities to be made. I do not have the experiences and knowledge of some of my fellow travelers, but for me it was eye opening.

 

I need to go work now, but will expand on this later today.

Ric

[Richard Furrer]

The museum tours, one every other day or so, were good. Some items were misidentified or they had the "best" material in storage, but some of it was spectacular. Most did not allow photos to be taken...I wish I had some from the Alwar Armoury...GREAT STUFF THERE...some wootz pieces I had never seen before and pattern-welded patterns that I thought were truly masterful. I have yet to get to the shop with the intent to replicate them, but hope to next year. There was an entire wall of Persian wootz shamshirs and another with suits of armor.

One of the main questions I had was "Is wootz still being made"...I would have to say no...none of the smiths I spoke to or museum folk knew of any. I met several smiths...the best being Gopilal Bahmwarlal and his three sons in Udaipur..I had met Gopilal while both he and I were demonstrating at the Smithsonian in DC back in 2002...it was real nice to see him in his element. I was supposed to bring him and his son Virendra to the US this year for the Blade show, but I dropped the ball...I will have them here in 2009 though.

 

One thing which was driven home was the element of trade. I saw Japanese swords, European, Persian etc in India..some refitted with indian handles and some not. Some Indian made blades to replicate the foreign work and with quite good technique. We toured a cannon factory which was now a museum...the casting it was over 30 foot deep and there was a reconstructed boring machine there...complete with animal driven turn wheel. The cutters were cast iron(steel) with bronze poured around them..they looked like a flower with steel petals.

 

It was quite humbling to see the old work in such abundance. It really made me reconsider what I was to focus on as the entire field of sword-making is vast...steel making, forging, polishing, fitting work like inlay and overlay, chasing, gem work and hard stone carving..etc...I wish I could do it all, but if one thinks that then mastery of any one technique will allude you. Some advice....when you think you are good..I mean really good...then go to a museum and spend the day...then go back to your shop and try not to cry.

 

I regret not seeing an iron pillar (there are many in India) up close. I'll do that when I go back.

 

I took about 700 pictures and review them from time to time...I always see some thing new.

Ric

[peter johnsson]

Ric, what a fantastic journey!

 

I can really identify with what you say about being humbled by the work of craftsmen of past times. Seeing such mastery puts a perspective on much that is done today. Not to make them into gods, just acknowledge the fact that they lived in a world where the craft was of central importance to society and that the making of blades was not just an art but also an industry. These people lived their craft.

 

Do you think you will explore Indian blades yourself in your smithy after this?

Do you find the blades of the orient more inspiring than the ones from wester europe?

[Richard Furrer]

Do you think you will explore Indian blades yourself in your smithy after this?

Do you find the blades of the orient more inspiring than the ones from wester europe?

 

 

It is difficult for me NOT to incorporate what I see into my work...after all few ideas (arguably none) develop in a vacuum. I like the odd Indian shapes..I saw things that would fit well in the "Klingon" world of Star Trek as well as Ritual blades that were quite outlandish in form. I will begin practicing chisel and file work soon which is found on many Indian pieces...look at thew cover of Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" for an example.

I hope to bend the ear and skills of Robert Weinstock and Patrick Hastings to bring me up to speed with such techniques.

Koftgari is also a wonderful overlay technique and I have been told that Gopilal will instruct me in this when he visits next year.

 

As far as East and West:

Good work is good work..be it a cave painting in France or Australia or the finest porcelain from China...to deny good work when it is found is pointless. I have seen excellent representations of good work in Europe of course and greater appreciation is always gained when one replicates the forms. All Japanese swords look more or less the same..till you get into the subtleties where they vary quite a bit. My trips to the Oakeshott Institute exposed me to European blades I would not have been able to handle in other places and my last trip through London showed still more shapes and styles and things I wish to do.

I am interested in odd shapes..lately that has been fullers and center ribs and "T" backs...found often in Indian and Persian arms. The Renaissance does have its own charm in diversity and delicate shapes and it is a direction I will move to at some point...I like those tricked out blades for dueling, but they are beyond my skill set at the moment.

 

As a businessman I need to do things that will sell...and since few deal with Indian or Persian work I am "safe" exploring those ethnicities and finding a market. It does, however, help that those swords interest me. Maybe most do not wish to hear that and that we craftsmen need to be "free and unfettered" by the winds of commerce, but that is not the case. Most fail from poor business practices long before finding the limits to their skills.

 

Speaking of which..I need to get mach to work..the 3B Nazel should come to life today....

 

Ric

[peter johnsson]

One thing I would much like to hear your words on: how has your studies in steel making and metallurgy influenced your approach to knives and swords?

[Richard Furrer]

One thing I would much like to hear your words on: how has your studies in steel making and metallurgy influenced your approach to knives and swords?

 

Well,

I'm not sure how to answer....I have been making steel almost as long as I have been smithing..the two seemed to go together....what with the History of Technology pursuit at the University and all. I mean..why would you NOT want to make your own steel???

 

I guess the more I do or, more importantly, the more old work I see the less confused I become about what is important. The hardness, balance, width and thicknesses all have their place, but at some point you need to come to terms with the fact that a whole lot of people were killed with some really poor weapons. Nobody wants to make crap so I always look at he best stuff I can, but baring that there is nothing wrong with those broken, bent, dull, rusted ugly out of balance things we have all seen...I still would not wish to get hit by them. For a LONG time hardness was a real button of mine, but most of the old work from most of the cultures was well below 40 rockwell...sure there are exceptions, but for the most part this is true..even when the steel allowed for more.....SO...WHY was this?

Well, it could be that it was simply enough..it was adequate..it was sellable and useable and that is all one would need.

It could be that this was the technique used and quenching was unknown.

It could be that the blade was in a fire

It could be that people are well below 40 rockwell....I have quiet the soft middle

It could be many many things, but....it was.

 

Well..I do not want to make what was needed...I want to make the outstanding pieces. Sure good enough is, well...good enough, but who the hell wants that? I want the best of the best...I want other smiths to look at the thing and say " Oh, you ass#$&%...I Hate you". I am far from there currently, but I'm working toward that.

After a while you get a "feel" for the end product and begin to think in terms of the materials rather than as a person imposing your will upon the material. For me it is not really a spiritual affinity for the steel, its not a new age hippie thing, I see no magic in the material, but I do see a very interesting technological thought process which takes dirt and allows the forging of useful tools from them. This it why my demonstrations are often called "From Dirt to Dagger" (I see that someone else is now using this term as well)...once you see the process it is near impossible to view the material or the end tool the same way. It still has mystery and no matter how good you are there can be bad days, but I think that if one works at it and keeps an open mind that many things become obvious.

 

Metallurgy in general is of great use, but in specific it is often difficult to find anything published that is of specific use. So much information that was common is not lost. We reinvent what was well known only to have it lost once again, but such is the way of things.

 

Not sure that answers the question. As to specific incident I can say that I have altered my forging to meet the requirements of crucible steels in general...slow forging at low temps and if you see a crack grind it out.

With bloomery steels I work hot and knock the snot out of it..it seems to like that; also fold often and look for splits..when it looks like steel then do three more welds.

And thermocycle when you are done forging....always.......heat to austenizing and cool to black..do this three times...it does make a difference.

 

 

Ric

[peter johnsson]

Thank you Ric,

 

I enjoyed reading that. It may seem like obvious things to you, but to me this perspective of yours is what I find fascinating in what you do.

 

Something I was planning to ask you about was your experience of balancing the craft with being home with your kids. We both seem to have very similar situations in that a period in life was spent away from the workshop, and also relocating or setting up new workshop at this time.

Do you want to share some thoughts on this?

 

Otherwise, I would like to thank you for your time and words, Ric.

I look forward to follow the next session in this series.

 

Best

Peter

Edited May 23, 2008 by peter johnsson

[Richard Furrer]

I have not found a balance with home and work...it has taken a long time for me to not BE what I DO.

As far as being the "primary" caregiver to my two boys (though my wife may argue about the seven month old) and trying to work, well I am not sure there can be balance. My kids come first..they must. I have passed on work that I knew I could not do because of the lack of time I can spend in the shop...though I would like to do more I can not. Things are odd in that I have had to move the shop this year and have had house issues to deal with so work is very slow to progress and more jobs are piling up. I have only recently come to terms with the fact that I am a Part-time blacksmith.

 

I tried the baby sitter solution, but it rarely worked well. With some work I need more help and luckily my Mother and my Mother-in-law can come for short periods of time. Case in point, I have a large order for some tools I make and have been getting the 3B Nazel up and running the past two weeks and have had family here to watch the two boys. Without this help I would be at a stand still. This job will take four weeks of work when I get going on it and should pay down some of the debt accumulated building the new shop and tooling (the Nazel fired up four hours ago and should be online tomorrow for use...with luck). What I try to do is get manageable jobs, keep in mind that I do architectural work as well as several other widgets in addition to blades, that allow me to work on them at night and weekends. In an average week I am lucky to get 20 hours of "work" done and this varies with family commitments and the unscheduled events that always have a way of coming up. With this reality in mind I have been slowly moving toward a new shop building over the past four years and setting up equipment that multiplies me by several times (scary thought) with the goal of doing 8 hours of work in four..the axiom "work smarter not harder"...though I am not sure smelting iron is the smart thing to do.

I have been at this smithing thing for almost two decades and it is now only coming into focus. Part of that is because I am who I am, part because of the family situation and partly because life is what it is.

 

By now you have done the math and wonder how or why I am still in business...well according to my accountant I am not. This is not a craft where you can look forward to retirement of leisure, but by being selective and smart I think I have managed to focus a bit on what is both interesting and mildly profitable. If I were really "smart" I'd be making low end stock removal blades with cord wrapped handles and pushing hard for high end architectural jobs, but I would much rather make six or so hand crafted swords a year and do the occasional gate or railing. I have been increasing my sales each year since I started Door County Forgeworks and hope to continue to do so, but it comes at a price...reinvesting in the business and having a debt load to take down every so often. Add to this my willingness to do R&D which may lead nowhere and the lines between full-time father, part-time smith and "that odd hairy guy down the street" gets blurred every week.

I should also say that I have a truly wonderful group of friends in this craft whom have helped me with technique and supplies and advice on many many occasions. Its been said that friends are your greatest asset and I abuse mine on a regular basis. For some reason they seem to like me so until they come to their senses I'll take all the advantages from them that I can.

 

 

I would give the advice to any wishing to get into blacksmithing to do it as a hobby, not a profession. Learn from everyone and take classes as you are able. Set up a small shop and practice, copy others work for a time and then consciously develop your own style...selectively borrowing someone's style is permitted in Blacksmithing, but nobody like a Thief.

[Richard Furrer]

Hello All,

Vince Evans will be the next here, but with the Blade Show looming we will wait till next week for the Q&A. I have been impressed by both his work and his person for some time. Remember earlier I stated that I would like to make other smiths mad at me for my work...well, Vince makes me mad and has for some years now.

When I grow up I want to be Vince...or Don Fogg...now if I could just get one of them to grow a thick beard....

 

 

If Peter does not mind I will fill in a few points tonight which I feel I mentioned as random thoughts rather than giving them the time they deserve.

 

Ric

[Alan Longmire]

You can't grow up to be Vince, I wanna grow up to be Vince!

 

Excellent choice, and thanks for asking him.

[peter johnsson]

Thank you Ric!

 

I do appreciate the time you put in to this already, but look forward to any bonus post you can manage.

 

It will be great to benefit from a chat between you and Vince. I´ve not yet had the honor to meet him (still hoping to do so some day), but I am of course fascinated by his work!

This will be good.

[B. Norris]

Ric,

 

If it makes you feel better. I get mad when I see the work you do. Especially that chisel set you posted a while ago. And... I have a beard!

 

BTW I'm enjoying this thread very much, it has been inspirational. Thank you Chris for starting this up.

 

~Bruce~

[Richard Furrer]

You can't grow up to be Vince, I wanna grow up to be Vince!

 

Excellent choice, and thanks for asking him.

 

Vince is on my short list of folk I hate...there is a guy in Florida named Walley Hostetter who is worth hating as well...the guy has no off switch..just a ball of energy waiting to get pointed at something...I see Vince, true or not, as a very measured gentleman...something I wish to explore in questions.

I also thought about a few makers in New Zealand...a growing talent pool down there which is something I would like to explore in person.

Issues with translation pretty much canceled out India and Japan, though I am sure we could all do with some frank talk from one craftsman to another.

Don Fogg was on the short list as well.......I have a few years worth of questions for him.

 

Ric

[Richard Furrer]

There area few ways I have looked at blacksmithing over the years.

I suppose I would call it Process and Product Smithing.

When I began I wanted to make swords and knives...when your just starting out you have neither process nor product..just ambition and some goal you think is crystal clear. There was no time crunch or job to do, just desire and the fire.

Shortly after I moved to Florida I landed a job forging for a small Architectural Iron company (two owners and me) and I had some skills, but no experience with deadline forgings....in other words The Product side of smithing. If you ever wish to poison a good hobby then do it as a job. Don't get me wrong, some of it was great..the big tools (250 little giant, plethora of hand tools, welders, pullmax nibbler, 50# beaudry, 1B Nazel etc), the work was large and ornamental and allowed growth as a smith due to the varied nature of the forgings, BUT beyond the opportunity were the demands..a hundred scrolls a day, thousand pounds of textured bar..and then cold straightened...enough twisted square bar to make it difficult to see straight. I do not see this as a unique experience nor a "bad" one, but it is mine so I am telling you about it.

 

While at this job, in between the large work, I would work on new techniques..some gained from a hammer-in and others from the various books, but most from just playing and letting the material show me what it can and can not do. I made some billets of pattern-weld and forged a few swords, but nothing of note. My wootz work was on hold at the time, mostly. I did get to hang out with Steve Schwarzer and a few other knife-makers (Jim Fagan, Larry Harley, Bob Weinstock among others) and took two sword forging classes from Fogg during this time frame (I still talk to some of those in the class now some 11 years later--Hey Joel!). This type of forging, the "fun stuff" the learning the new experiences, the Steel-making I do is Process Smithing. There is no product to speak of, but rather an exploration of the technique for its own right. Sure one can master and then apply the process and thus turn it into a product, but the nature would have changed as well.

 

Be careful of both these types of smithing....treat them both with a healthy distain. Product taken to the end game is nothing but work and process followed blindly is pure folly.....a balance must be struck (get it..struck) between the two. I am entering a widget "product" phase at the moment and it sucks, but the goal is to get the work done so I can explore more process...with the new tool the "product smithing" allowed me to purchase. Production runs of forgings, or anything really, let you see where you lack skills....and teach you how to shave time off manufacturing..if you have 100 to make and take five minutes off each then you can really see the benefit. In blacksmithing we talk of heats...how many heats did that take?...I have shaved off four heats per piece with the new 3B Nazel and once I get into the zone I hope to drop another....it makes a huge difference in costs for fuel and time and that elusive thing called profit.....profit...if you are getting into knife-making then this is a term you will never see again...or if you do it will be in the phrase "Where did my profit go?"

 

Most of the money to be made in knives is in turning the things we love into another Product Smithing operation....very few can make money treating it like a Process....if you try the new all the time..the new technique...the risky...then your failure rate goes up as well..........failure rate is not found in product smithing...failure is designed out of product smithing...failure costs money...failure is discouraging...failure is to be avoided................but some of my best work, the truly interesting stuff comes while just walking that tightrope were utter failure is on one side and the extraordinary is on the other. Art can come of failure...the new is from failure...the true stuff of a man is what he does with failure and process smithing is born from it as well.

 

Well, that's a bout all I got..........

 

Ric

[Christopher Price]

I, too, hate you Ric. Hope that makes you feel better. Heckle, heckle, heckle.

 

I'm sure we'll get to Don someday, and it'll be a special interview I think, because I know so many people have questions for him... it would be best to filter it a little, maybe.

 

 

Ric, Peter, thank you both... and everyone else so far. I continue to be amazed at the insights and thoughts this discussion brings out. I find it's what I look for first when I come check out the forum, to see if someone has added to this wealthy vein of inspiration.

 

 

Good luck at Blade, and we'll see what Vince can do to top you, Ric. In the meantime, thanks for playing, and spending some of your valuable time on the rest of us.

[Richard Furrer]

Vince Evans had returned from the Blade Show and will be here shortly.

 

 

So, tell us a little bit about how you started in metalworking and what drew you to knives and swords.

I would also like you to elaborate on historical pieces you have studied (maybe a favorite) and how this has altered you work over the years.

 

Thank you for the chance to talk Vince.

Ric

[Vince Evans]

Thank you for inviting me to participate in this interview. Let me start with a little bit of my background. I was born and raised in Hawaii, a Caucasian (or "haole" as the locals say) growing up in a predominantly Asian and Hawaiian community. My parents were both artists, my mother was a portrait artist, my father an ornamental blacksmith and metal sculptor. It was hard to explain, especially in that community, when my elementary school teacher would ask students what their father did for a living.

 

I always liked working with my hands building model railroads and ships -- the more detailed the better. I also took as many art classes as I could in school, mainly because I knew that I could get good grades and get out of taking math. When I was about seven or eight years old I remember my dad making a Viking sword and shield for a customer. I don't remember specifics about the sword, but something stuck in my mind. It was my sister who introduced me to "The Lord of the Rings" books that makes so many boys dream of being heroes and wielding swords!

 

I started out making miniature knives and swords for doll houses (my mom had a doll house) -- I figured that every doll house needed kitchen knives and swords to hang on the walls. This was circa 1980-81. I also did restoration work on Chinese and Middle Eastern swords for Philip Tom. My dad didn't want to do the work so he pawned it off on me. By 1983 I was forging full sized knives and swords. My passion has always been for swords but I have done my share of hunters and bowies. My earlier work was pretty rough and unfortunately comes back to haunt me on occasion. Many of my early swords went to SCA members in Hawaii who were college students with a budget of $200 or less, paid for in $20/month increments.

 

In the early 1990s I was still doing restoration work for Phil and he suggested that I do pieces inspired by originals because he hadn't seen anyone doing them. I had a lot of Chinese swords in my shop for restoration through the years and that helped with understanding how they should look and feel. I also got to handle a fair number of Middle Eastern swords. To this day, Phil doesn't hesitate to let me know if something doesn't look right. Sometimes it is correctable, other times it just has to wait until the next piece.

 

I don't like to do exact copies of pieces but prefer to think of myself as a craftsman in that era and what I would have done had I been working then. My decorative motifs may not always match the era of the sword but had I been working in the 10th century and saw a motif that I liked from the 6th century I would have incorporated it into my work (i.e., there is a Moro kris with an alternating twist pattern welded blade like on the Sutton Hoo sword).

 

When I first started making swords, I liked the look of the classic double edged blade, but over the years have grown to prefer sabres. I think that only in the last four to five years the direction of my work has started to become more focused and refined. Having had the opportunity to see and handle original pieces I can more appreciate the petite and delicate proportions of many of the originals. For example, until we handled original Scottish dirks we were guilty of making them with five inch grips. It took a lot of work to convince people that original dirk grips weren't that long. I'm still working at making my work look and feel "right." I'm not there yet, but I'm on the right track.

 

I am amazed by the craftsmanship that I see on original pieces, whether it be Anglo-Saxon, Viking, Scottish, Turkish, etc. The skill of these craftsmen has always intrigued me and drives me on in my work.

 

Vince

Edited June 21, 2008 by Vince Evans

[cdent]

Hi Vince,

Thanks for taking the time to give us a little background. I'm a hobbiest on Oahu (small stuff) and really enjoy the craft. I don't mean to pounce on you, but if you ever find yourself back in this neck of the woods, please consider doing a class or little hammer-in. There just doesn't seem to be too many folks who forge out here.

 

Anyway, take care, Craig

[Richard Furrer]

Vince,

You mentioned working in the realm for what the old craftsmen would do.....does this mean you shun new technology or tools?

What is your view of modern tooling advantages, if there are any, as opposed to "strictly traditional" tools and techniques.

 

To flesh this idea out...what do you see and the necessary tools (power hammer, belt grinder, salt pots etc) or is it more of the idea that you use what works to get the effect you are after?

 

Ric

[Vince Evans]

Ric,

I use what tools work for me to achieve the final results that I’m looking for. I’m currently working on an 18th century Turkish Kilij blade that requires me to hand scrape panels into the blade. I’m not sure of any other way to achieve the look that I want.

 

In my shop I have a small milling machine and metal lathe, along with belt grinders and a power hammer. Each of these tools was added to shorten the time it takes to complete a project. As for what I consider necessary tools in my shop -- a forge, power hammer, belt grinder, drill press and a good vise. I use a lot of hand tools in my shop, many of them home made, such as my scrapers.

 

My wooden scabbards are carved out with chisels and knives and the outsides shaped with hand planes. Much of this work could be done with power tools but I enjoy the quiet time spent doing it by hand and I feel that my fit and dimensions are closer than would be otherwise.

 

 

Craig, we’ll be moving back to the Big Island once our house in Washington sells. We can talk story once we get back.

 

Vince

[cdent]

Thanks for the hospitality Vince. I'm near Scot M. and he often speaks fondly of you.

 

Sorry to go off topic on a great thread, Craig

[DFogg]

Hi Vince,

 

Thank you for doing the interview, we are honored.

 

Question: I saw you do a scraper demonstration at the ABS hammerin in Arkansas a few years ago. You made your scraper from an old file. I would love to see pictures of your handmade hand tools and if you could, describe how they are made.

 

Don

[Vince Evans]

Hi Don,

 

I added an album to my Picture Trail site that has pictures of some of my scrapers and fullering jigs. I’ll add pictures to the album as I think of them.

 

www.picturetrail.com/vevans

 

Panel scraping is one of the techniques that I get asked about at hammer-ins. My scrapers are mostly made from old files, although I do have a few made from planer blades. My round scrapers are chainsaw files with the end sharpened at 90 degrees. These are used for cleaning out narrow, round bottom fullers. Some chainsaw files have a soft end that must be ground back to where the teeth start.

 

My panel scrapers are made from mill files. I split the end with a cut off wheel and then bend the end over at a right angle. One leg becomes the cutting blade and the other becomes the “rip fence.” You can adjust the distance from the rip fence by heating it and spreading it apart before re-tempering. I also made a panel scraper with an adjustable rip fence.

 

Paneled blades are seen historically on Middle Eastern, as well as Indonesian blades. The work can be tedious but I feel that the end results are worth the trouble.

 

Vince

[J.Arthur Loose]

It's always an inspiration and a pleasure seeing your work. Thanks for the link to the photos.

[Richard Furrer]

Vince,

Do you take commission work or are your projects on the list of pieces you wish to explore?

I know many who feel trapped by the list of requests they have taken on and due to this they are not able to grow in new directions....Have you felt this in your career? The idea that folk want to order what they have seen you make and not something new.

 

When you set out on new project do you have a time frame in mind for the piece or put more plainly...Do you plan projects to take X amount of time?

 

Ric