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Well, now I would like to ask a question hoping that many experts in this forum can give me an answer.

I have seen some photos where you can see some swords at spiral. This strange shape is only accidental or is intentional? Perhaps a ritual?

 

Thanks

 

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CIAO FROM ITALY

 

Marco Di Francesco

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the first one with the mexican hat pomel looks similar to a Hallstatt period sword. Is it a bronze of Iron blade? It looks like a ritual sacrafice to me, The germanic tribes of northern europe would sometimes do this to swords much later in the migration era and beyond. It seems like this might have been a common indo euopean form of sacrafice, they didn't do this to all sacraficial swords, so mabe it was a ritual for the sacral offering of an enemy's sword or the sword of a sertain type of villaine? Where these from a river bottom? I don't know of any examples of bent blades being oferred to sacred rivers or for burial during the Hallstatt or La Tene period... but I'm by no means an expert.

Edited by Jake Powning
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The top sword is considered the sword of the Chieftain of Oss.... It was found in an urn, bent apparently to fit it inside there...

 

Here is one page that turns up with a quick search: http://www.siteclx.nl/rmo/index.php/do-col...b-eenrijkevorst

 

It did help that I knew the name of the sword already, though... Have wanted to make or have a similar sword made for some time now... :)

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The top sword is considered the sword of the Chieftain of Oss.... It was found in an urn, bent apparently to fit it inside there...

 

Here is one page that turns up with a quick search: http://www.siteclx.nl/rmo/index.php/do-col...b-eenrijkevorst

 

It did help that I knew the name of the sword already, though... Have wanted to make or have a similar sword made for some time now... :)

 

Interesting thing....I have not seen aything quite like that piece.

Some observations.....note the edge...very blunt......not from cleaning as it is even and corrosion is not even so....it was how it was made. Not a "war" weapon I would think, but rather more likely a symbol of office.

 

Ric

Richard Furrer

Door County Forgeworks

Sturgeon Bay, WI

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I'd second the opinion that these were sacrificed blades. Oakeshott mentions that the Celts rather routinely destroyed captured war booty before depositing them in religious offerings after a battle. He also mentions that some blades were bent or broken before being deposited in graves by various groups. He doesn't mention if these were ritual "kills" to release the spirit of the sword or just insurance that no one was going to come back to open the grave at a later time to recover the blade, which was also often done.

 

Doug Lester

HELP...I'm a twenty year old trapped in the body of an old man!!!

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Interesting, thank guys for this information

Here is one page that turns up with a quick search: http://www.siteclx.nl/rmo/index.php/do-col...b-eenrijkevorst

Scott, interesting the information on the internet site and the urn where was contained this sword.

 

Then these swords were folded into urns, this was one of the reasons for their spiral shape. Exact?

CIAO FROM ITALY

 

Marco Di Francesco

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Well, I am just guessing but it seems to me that this one was bent around to fit in that container... However, that may not have been a common thing. I am not sure how many more blades have been found in the same sort of conditions. I do agree with the other folks here that this appears to me to have been a sacrificed sword. You can find a fair number of later Norse blades bent into all kinds of ribbons after the death of the blades owners... One of the theories/ideas behind that appears maybe to put the blade into such a shape as to keep thieves from stealing it...

 

I suspect that there were many reasons that blades were deformed in such manner....

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  • 1 month later...

I missed this thread...

This is a thread I found on the subject of these swords... http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=3475

It's not really my favorite sword form, but interesting none the less. Very early iron age, these come in both bronze and iron.

 

It has been suggested that these sacrificed swords were often burned, in effect annealed, before being bent.

George Ezell, bladesmith

" How much useful knowledge is lost by the scattered forms in which it is ushered to the world! How many solitary students spend half their lives in making discoveries which had been perfected a century before their time, for want of a condensed exhibition of what is known."
Buffon


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I think that this sword is too good for 800B.C. To me it looks like something made for Indiana Jones.

Iron in that period :) Nice 1. april joke.

 

The photo actually comes from a Museum John. I doubt museums would lend themselves to such jokes (not even in the U.S). Perhaps at best it is a replica but I don't see the point in it having the stuck up sediment. There's plenty of explanations given for the finding of weapons bent in such shapes (or different ones) and these references are not hard to find, you just have to do some searching and reading.

 

If I am correct I believe this is another incredibly misused photo (by other people) :rolleyes: that comes from the collection of our own Jeroen Zuiderwijk.

Edited by Hÿllyn

Grey hair and alopecia are signs of age, not of wisdom...

Rósta að, maðr!

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The photo actually comes from a Museum John. I doubt museums would lend themselves to such jokes (not even in the U.S). Perhaps at best it is a replica but I don't see the point in it having the stuck up sediment. There's plenty of explanations given for the finding of weapons bent in such shapes (or different ones) and these references are not hard to find, you just have to do some searching and reading.

 

If I am correct I believe this is another incredibly misused photo (by other people) rolleyes.gif that comes from the collection of our own Jeroen Zuiderwijk.

 

 

Hyllyn,

Excuse me, unfortunately my English is very bad and I do not understand everything that is written.

however it was not absolutely my intention to abuse photos of others. These photos are Jeroen, he published these photos in this forum some time ago, and now I was intrigued by this strange shape and I asked more information

CIAO FROM ITALY

 

Marco Di Francesco

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I instantly thought of the flexible sword used in Kalarippayatt.

Flexible sword, Chuttuval/Urumi

It isn`t a flexible sword though, that`s for sure.

Nothing is as beautiful, as the colour of orange-hot steel!

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Hyllyn,

Excuse me, unfortunately my English is very bad and I do not understand everything that is written.

however it was not absolutely my intention to abuse photos of others. These photos are Jeroen, he published these photos in this forum some time ago, and now I was intrigued by this strange shape and I asked more information

 

Your intention is fine and as such I wasn't referring to you. Although I have seen graphic material being abused to suit people's limited information on a subject.

 

Like Jeff Pringle has said in the past you just have to find out the pertinent bibliography and do your search. Sometimes however you can find someone has the time online to answer those questions but you have to be discerning as to what is being said. Like in the case of John it is nothing more than an uneducated guess.

 

Best regards

 

@ Aarya that's a cool link

Grey hair and alopecia are signs of age, not of wisdom...

Rósta að, maðr!

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I think that this sword is too good for 800B.C. To me it looks like something made for Indiana Jones.

Iron in that period :) Nice 1. april joke.

No, it's just fine for 800Bc... they call it the Iron Age for a reason, ya know... :huh:

George Ezell, bladesmith

" How much useful knowledge is lost by the scattered forms in which it is ushered to the world! How many solitary students spend half their lives in making discoveries which had been perfected a century before their time, for want of a condensed exhibition of what is known."
Buffon


view some of my work

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I know what iron age. As wikipedia say: "In Central Europe, the Iron Age is generally divided in the early Iron Age Hallstatt culture (HaC and D, 800-450) and the late Iron Age La Tène culture (beginning in 450 BC). The Iron Age ends with the Roman Conquest."

 

So this masterpiece is made at begining of central european iron age? Yeah, right.

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I know what iron age. As wikipedia say: "In Central Europe, the Iron Age is generally divided in the early Iron Age Hallstatt culture (HaC and D, 800-450) and the late Iron Age La Tène culture (beginning in 450 BC). The Iron Age ends with the Roman Conquest."

 

So this masterpiece is made at begining of central european iron age? Yeah, right.

Yep.

Which part are you having trouble with?

(it is the very Hallstatt culture you mention that produced this sword)

George Ezell, bladesmith

" How much useful knowledge is lost by the scattered forms in which it is ushered to the world! How many solitary students spend half their lives in making discoveries which had been perfected a century before their time, for want of a condensed exhibition of what is known."
Buffon


view some of my work

RelicForge on facebook
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Yep.

Which part are you having trouble with?

(it is the very Hallstatt culture you mention that produced this sword)

 

Double yep. These guys were turning out the same design in Bronze for a few centuries before that, just for practice on the good stuff, as it were. ;) Hallstatt stuff is amazing, La Tene is mind-blowing. Roman is plain utilitarian, an example of what happens to something that used to be an art when mass production (relatively speaking) takes over. A near-total devolution and debasement of the art, if you ask me. Never assume the ancients were not capable of incredible work. Some of it can't be reproduced today.

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