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Niko Hynninen

5 th crucible run

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Hi!

 

Inspired by new burners i run series of crucible.

 

Now i have made 5...i know it´s not much but every single one have given more ?? and more learning.

 

But now i think i have some thing to show....at this state is ingot but ...now it looks smooth and nice....not like previous 4 ( cheesy )

 

At this point i thank Greg and Jeff. In some point i would have given up hope to come this far.

Thanks Guys :lol:

 

Here is pic todays run.

 

ingredies:

 

1/2 presvious undercooked ingot 348 g ( C cont sparktest 0,5??)

320g iron

10g charcoal

66g greenglass-----> ingredient that i was too picky previous runs ;)

 

I made lid of wool, satanite type paste,hitemp mortar..and in to furnace it goes....2h

 

I let it cool in side.....after some h i open the furnece top and....damn crucible lid was melted ...dissappeared!!

 

I was hoping that glass was protecting ingot....

 

And this is was under 8mm glass :)

 

Upokas5_002.jpg

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Upokas5_050.jpg

 

 

 

After all im happy smelter...i dont know the C cont..sparktest vs. old file / factory hicarbonsteel is quite different....so ingot could be under 1%C still....but im now in right bath.

I was bit too exited to get ingot out...and hit chissel through the crucible...but it was served greatly last 3 runs..

 

More will be done :)

 

Niko

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sweeeeeeeeeeT

 

nice dendrites on that...... and smooth aswell...

 

 

good stuff

Greg

 

;) ;) ;) ;)

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Nice ingot. :) A bit with a hat on a top, but still good. As far as this is one of the first ingots I would recommend to cut it to two halves along the diameter line. That is to insure that there are no voids inside. It might me qite frustrating to forge the ingot and finaly discover that it has a hollow middle. And all this forging was a waste of time.

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Congrats, Niko!

B)

;) But don't thank us yet, you have yet to experience the major work in crucible steel making - now you have to wrestle that lump into a bar of steel, could be you'll be cursing us by the end! :o:D

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Hi Guys.

 

Ok...i dont thank yet....But hey i have to...now 1/2 ingot is bar:)

 

I cut ingot in half to see is there bublles or someting else...it looked ok...in middle was some sort of "not smelted" spot.

Anyways i wanted to try how it feels and give it 2 times good soak above non mag...an let it cool...

After that i started to forge..

 

Forging temp i started orange...ingot was quite soft under powerhammer....but soon as temp droped about 1400 -1500 F it wsa real hard...so back to forge and agane..agane...agane...some small cracks i did notised and grind them away fast....and continue.

 

Overall 12 heats and bar was ready.

 

It was cousious to see how spark chanced dourind forging??? I grind those cracks away...and spark deffently was better....about 1% " at least"...

 

Here is pic.

 

Upokas5_taona_002.jpg

 

Upokas5_taona_051.jpg

 

Upokas5_taona_036.jpg

 

Upokas5_taona_025.jpg

 

Upokas5_taona_024.jpg

 

Upokas5_taona_022.jpg

 

Upokas5_taona_013.jpg

 

Upokas5_taona_008.jpg

 

Upokas5_taona_005.jpg

 

 

 

Other side is horisontal crack...it´s like to top of ingot ...i think i sould have grind that off...it was bit crumby...

 

Niko

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Niko, this is SUPER! You did it and did well. The heat treating will be the second challenge. :rolleyes:

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I second that...

 

right on bros.... you did it...

 

definitely treat yourself to a beer...

 

G

 

- forging is alway one of the big hurdles... i'm glad you got through it

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Hi Guys!

 

 

I started to forge bar in blade form...like i told 1/2 cut ingot had "center" some soft of undercooked spot....

I did get most off whit grinder but it looks undercooked still.

 

I forge it in blade and it was about 15 heats...orange to red...and so on.

 

Finally i grind the surface clean and made quike polish--->Nital treatment.

 

It didnt look so much pattern...and i went to the microskope to find out is the cementite in matrix...

Well have to say i was bit dissaponted to find there is only some ?!!?

 

I try to think this trough and come up this kind of explanation..i hope you guys correct this if it´s not even close.

 

 

" Ingot was undercooked....carbon level is bit too low and carbon is not evenly inside ingot...

Some decarb has happend in out side wall about 2mm. Undercooking is the reason small bores is middle...( one is marked whit whit green marker)

Crack is becourse i DIDINT grind under the tophat those bubbles also!!"

 

I grind and polish other 1/2 ingot as well...thake pic whit scope and ther eyou can see cementite in matrix....but ??? where those went douring forging?? Or was this becourse C was not evenly in ingot.

 

I think i dont forge 1/2..i leave it in reference.

 

Here is pic and one drawing...i hope you see my what im trying to seay here :)

 

Anyways im more then happy and YES i didt taked that beer too ;)

 

 

 

Upokas5_taona.jpg

 

Upokas5_taona_007.jpg

Referens 1/2 part

 

Upokas5_taona_050.jpg

"Inside"of inot to bar....nasty woid/Crack??

 

Upokas5_taona_019.jpg

This is closeup forged blade.....as you see now cement??

This is outer wall of ingot...

 

Upokas5_taona_004.jpg

Spot above the small bubble.

 

 

Upokas5_taona_002.jpg

"best part"...about 10mm from center point...whole ingot looks same...middle not so good and like circular secment this type matrix

 

Upokas5_taona_015.jpg

Transform outer layer to inside..

 

Upokas5_taona_014.jpg

out side...nearest to crucible wall.

 

Niko

Edited by Niko Hynninen

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Hi Niko.

First of all , congratulations on a nice crucible run. From the looks of all the melted refractory, I would say you new, big burners did the job. :lol: I'm sorry to see yet another crucible sacrificed to the steel deity. <_<

 

I have a lot less experience than Jeff and Greg with conventional furnace runs, but have a fair amount with the higher heat environs.

 

The bits of un assimilated material in the middle of your ingot is due to low heat. Not that your burner and furnace aren't adequate, it's the refractory. In my experience, when it melts like that, it's like wearing wet clothes in the rain. In other words, lost it's insulation before the ingot was done. The same thing happened to me recently. Melted several pounds of insa wool right on top of the crucible. What a mess.

 

I'm experimenting with some cheap, high/extreme heat furnace material. I'll share when I get some good results.

 

 

Those pics are great! Thanks for sharing. I learn a lot from these threads.

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Niko

What to tell you... you steped on the same racks as many of us....

 

First you should know that around the melting point diffusion is so fast that carbon concentration become uniform in few minutes. So there is no carbon content difference most likely.

Undecooked or not completely smelted carge usualy creates an odd looking pieces in the ingot. They do not have strong dendritic structure and in many cases produce the cracks along the border of unsmelted metall.

The voids are most likely - iron oxide bubbles. In your case I think you smelted mild steel and carbon in some form and you kept it in molten stage too long. So some iron got oxydized. That creates boiling and voids because iron oxide melts at 950-980C.

 

Additional proof of my theory is the ingot shape. The top "hat" is the level where the gases can leave the ingot and the space between the ingot and the crucible relatively free. This metal on a top is void free. But do not be excited too much. The ingot top contains all dirt that floated during the melt. You definitely had not enough slag to pull and trap all contaminants form the ingot or its composition was wrong. The slag chemistry and composition is by far-far-far not that simple.

I had for example ingots with very dendritic "hat" and absolutely cheesy towards the bottom. That is overcooking without the proper slag(amount or composition). Later I will show the picture.

 

I the middle you have normal shrink-void area. it happens almost in amy ingot and in big ones it might be very big and ugly.

The only ways to reduce(but not to eliminate) this void formation is relatively FAST cooling of the ingot. Another way is to make ingot more flat than high. That will help to push this void to the very top where you can cut it WITH the "hat" off.

Fast cooling is not good for the wootz, so there is not many optinos left.... or expect the void in the top side of the tall ingot or make flatter ingot.

 

Anyway, you got the ingot and it is possible to forge it. Keep going.

Edited by Dmitry.M

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Niko,

Just a few thoughts on this and future melts.

 

Use as small starting material as you can...forged the iron thin and pickle them in acid to remove oxide layer then wash with water well...or if you are using mild steel then collect the shvings from filing or the band saw...smaller particles will heat faster and allow for flux to caot it better...have a piece of organc matter in the crucible to get rid of oxygen...paper or green leaves wrk well....just a pinch...oxidised material will hold shape till the oxide layer is broken...like a mini crucible around each bit of starting material.

 

Use that broken crucible bottom as the top lid of the next run...this should cure the lid issues. Also the inswool was most likely dissolved by the glass bubbling around and not due to heat alone....flux contacting wool is like water to cotton candy......is goes away.

 

 

I suggest larger crucibles with no change in the charge....

 

Also where did you put the carbon? It matters...have it centered IN the iron if it is powdered form...have it on top if you use cast iron...always put some glass on the bottom and save most for the top. Carbon rarley equalises even during delta phase and as it cools the carbon is used for carbide and in the matrix so it is moving around. ...as to spark change well that can depend on forging temp as the carbon is still moving in and out of carbide bonding with temp and cooling...and the decarb is there as well

 

Voids

If the open pour/void does not see the light of day it should close up (depending on temp and deformation and a few other things...I never cut my ingots in half...ever.

Always get rid the top...it is useless...unless you want to replicate the seam as in the old work....it oftem leads to forging issues later. Sometimes the sides as well.

 

All for now...I have been without a computer for a while and now have other things to attend to...I am moving into my new shop this month.

 

Good luck and keep after it.

 

Ric

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Here's a slab cut from an ingot that was mostly melted but not enough, polished and etched in ferric chloride:

slab09.jpg

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Hi

 

 

 

Bennet

 

Thanks...burners or or one that i used " Le-burner" worked out great...i think cahnce the flare back to cone shape...now flame too point and it burns the inside ...it melts every time some..But it ´s old furnace anyways...

I was thinking this top lid melting too...and crucible was too full and glass did touch the wool :(

 

Dmitry

 

 

 

Resepy is in first post...But it´s not mill steel...it old iron...and sparktest shows no carbon...or if there is i dont see it...straight spark and shorth.

I think i had glass amout ok...but this wool and refractory smleted and dropped in charge !!

Thanks Dmitry i think im getting this much better :) BUT lots to learn still.

 

 

Richard

 

 

Before is charged this crucible whit brevious 1/" ingot i sandbasted that and all the iron i used.Is this ok?Or are they still coverd whith oxide.

I come up this idea too to use this broken bottom...Now i dont haveto think is it gointo hold, thaks Ric !

 

I but some glass on bottom and top of that 1/2 ingot and side of that more iron ....coverd all whit charcoal 10g and ad rest of glass about 40g top of the charge.

Ok i try to figure out how to place carbon in m next run...But it makes sense to but in middle :)

 

Thanks for the boost Ric.

 

 

Jeff

 

That looks like Cheese :)

...This was undercooked----right?

 

I run weekend this other test that im wanted to try many times...

It´s that Magnetit ore in to steel ingot...

I think my ore is good.. no lots of inpurity Fe cont should be around 80 -87% + There is V and Ti also :)

But my main consern is adding right ammount of charcoal---If ration is about 1:2 could it still be too small ammoutn?

Forex. 2kg of ore and 1kg of charcoal--

 

Also i have bloom iron/mid/and small hi carb steel bits from previous tatara runs...too small to forge..so thats another run...But i have to go whit feeling whit this C....no idea how much C there is all ready.

 

 

Anyways----THANKS GUYS :)

 

N

 

PS i ad more pic and info how weekend went

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Hi.

 

Dmitry

 

 

You are right.....its my bad....i was bit off hurry...i should read more carefully :)

If C is so low that there is non-->is it that just iron....or can pure iron even made ( old factory - modern factory)

because some C will absob in it and it cant all decarb off.

 

.... Damn it´s so confusing text that cant even figure out my self :lol:

 

N

Edited by Niko Hynninen

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Hi.

 

Dmitry

 

 

You are right.....its my bad....i was bit off hurry...i should read more carefully :)

If C is so low that there is non-->is it that just iron....or can pure iron even made ( old factory - modern factory)

because some C will absob in it and it cant all decarb off.

 

.... Damn it´s so confusing text that cant even figure out my self :lol:

 

N

 

Pure iron can be made...mostly by an electrolytic process commercially.....ARMCO iron comes close to pure, but still not 100%. Food Grade iron powder for adding iron to iron enriched bakery is available, but expensive.

Stay with the wrought iron for now...or you can use bloomery material which is more fun.

 

Ric

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Hi !

 

 

 

Thanks Ric..i think some times im bit too excited and whole project grows huge :)

It would be good thing to brake and slow things down.

I cant promice....but i try to keep it simple and lear to control smelt whit these materials.....But i know my self....i can t promice no to try something wild :lol:

 

Niko

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Does the grade of wrought iron matter I've some cheap hurdle bar which has to be worked at a low welding heat otherwise it can crack would it be suitable?

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Pure iron can be made...mostly by an electrolytic process commercially.....ARMCO iron comes close to pure, but still not 100%. Food Grade iron powder for adding iron to iron enriched bakery is available, but expensive.

Stay with the wrought iron for now...or you can use bloomery material which is more fun.

 

Ric

Oh pish....

Go exothermic. Sheesh :D:P;)

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Hi Guys

 

 

 

6 th run is done....and it end up totall meltdown :lol:

A almost dould smell this to happen before i started .... but!

 

Mornig i charged crucible whit these:

 

320g iron sandblasted and cut to small pieces

240 cast iron cuts from lace.

112g glass ( green)

4g Cr V steel

2 g Silver

1 " piece of cheep leather/wool

 

All ingresiens in and i made lid from old bit bigger crucible bottom...It was bit too big...and crucible looks like mushroom :lol: But i didnt think it could any problem.

 

Totall running time was 2,5h.....and now when i think this back....it could bean shorter.

 

When i cut gas and air....quiet moment....and then....like boiling sound...bubbles bubbles.....I was thinking what the :mellow:

I tooked the tp lid of from furnece...and Bingo....whole wall of furnace was melted.

 

I think the sound was from crucible and in side glass???

 

But Here is pic...crucible didn´t like the heat.....it was different maker....and now i know expencive crucible all way curantee better quality :lol:

 

Upokas5_002.jpg

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Upokas6_143.jpg

 

 

 

I Think this is all most ..if not cast iron...spark is not that nice....and stucture is bit weard??

I try to compare microskopic image in book images to get some ingo what i did grate.

Now macro is only though mag.lense...but first thing monday have chance to foto trough skope.

 

Beliwed or not im happy still :lol: burner works ...it melts great...i think use lower preasure next run....but before that i need to make totally new furnace.....and use totally heat proof casting...

 

Do you guys think this is cast.....i try to forge it tomorrow....i have given it 12 times non mag ---cool---non mag..so it sould be ok to start.

And dos any of you have sparktest image hicarb crucible steel ...it dould give some spektive on my smelts.

 

PS here is bloom material brevious nro 3 run...it has nice spark and stucture in side....( recepy bloo steel / iron + charcoal about 10g)( loo litlle glass)

 

Upokas6_007.jpg

Upokas6_004.jpg

Upokas6_005.jpg

 

Comment guys.....and Thanks agane...im bit lone whit this stuff here....and boost from you gives me motivatin to continue and pursuit my coal.

 

Greatings

 

Niko

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This great stuff! B)

Very nice pics and a good looking ingot. The silver ingredient is VERY Intriguing.

 

That poor furnace :D Thanks a lot for sharing this Niko.

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looks good...

 

lots of my ingots spark very short and puffy like the first photo... .. just be careful when you forge not to push the higher carbon ingots too quickly.. ... they can get grumpy.. :angry:

 

that nos 3 run is showing some very nice dendrites.. could be a real honey if it turns out..

 

 

oh.. and try to get a good number of heat cycles .. it does help the pattern..

 

this is very exciting

 

Greg

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Niko, this is the best structure you can deram about to my knowledge. Just be carefull now and do not spoil it. Spark test is VERY inaccurate, so do not pay much of attention to it. :rolleyes:

 

For the future do not plaster the cover that tight, it might rupture the crucible. Leave small opening somewhere.

 

Here is my cheese ingot with similar structure... :wacko:

CA0007.jpg

Edited by Dmitry.M

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Hi Guys.

 

 

I managet to forge ingot.....NOT!

 

OK...whole thing went like this.

 

I started whit 15 heats non mag...cool...ex--

After this forging dull orange...ingot was hard and did get harder when it cools....so i stoped in dull red.

Like this i spend my time in forge and after 60 heats i had bar shape ingot....

Douring forgin small craks abeard and i grinf them every time away....and continue...

 

BUT.......

 

It was about heat 65 bit bigger crack abeard....and i notiset that this is the end...

I try to grind it off ...but it was deep...i tryed and tryed....but no.

 

It´s quite :angry: to forge this ammout heats and discover that ingot is not that forgeble..

 

I THINK this is becourse carbon contenst is TOO hi....i did´t forge it heavy force at any time.

 

I have 1/2 ingot this same material left...but dont see point trying it....

Now i have miniatyr blade....i did manage to salvage small part ...mabyi make it a some jewelry necklace??

 

 

I would post some pic but harddrive of my own computer is broken.... :angry: That too...

 

But i try to but some pic tomorow...

 

And i have intersting experiment......Like i said..cant promice to keep it simple :lol:

This experiment i post it ´s own topic...

 

Niko

 

PS im not down....i will turn this to my adwantage....soon ;)

 

N

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