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In Search of Hamon, Experiments at the Forge #1

Sole Smithing in the BoneYard

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#61 Joshua States

Joshua States

    Wait a minute.....what?

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 10:00 PM

Try to enjoy the journey.

This has been an awesome thread. 


“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”

 

Once more into the fray. Into the last good fight I'll ever know. Live and die on this day. Live, and die, on this day.

 

Josh

http://www.dosgatosdesignsllc.com/#!

 


#62 Jan Ysselstein

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 12:10 AM

Joshua,

 

Thank you for your interest in the topic. I do enjoy the journey, but like most people, I would not mind it if the material would cooperate here and there. There are a few topics I need to encounter here and I might as well take my time to deal with them. Welding is one of them,  welding and not getting a large loss of carbon ( gas forge )  is a tricky combination and requires a bit of consideration .  The other is quenching and all the possible combinations of methods and materials. I have removed the flat die on the hammer and replaced it with an old die I had which must have come from an LG 25, mine is a 50., The new setup is much quieter and I think that flat surface was pulling too much heat out of the billets. The forge is ideal, I just need the controls a little closer to where I am located. The cutting of billets is working very well ( using a treadle hammer ). In the above video there are several points at which the smith resolves a problem..one is the removal of a bubble of slag or air using a hatchet.....the other is a moment at which he notices his cut  billet is upside down , very hot and opening ( as  he pulls it out of the rice straw ash) . The film shows him just closing it and moving on..I think that could be risky. I am finding that hinge has to hold the pieces in place firmly. So, we go on and try to solve the real and imaginary problems one by one and enjoy the experiences on the journey. 

Jan


Edited by Jan Ysselstein, 22 December 2016 - 11:21 AM.


#63 Jan Ysselstein

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 12:56 PM

The blank in the above post was soaked in the furnace, quenched and turned into a material much like Filo Dough... ( I will post a picture when I start working with the material again ) That time consuming experiment did give me some valuable information about what is happening in the forge at high temperatures.

 

To confirm I would not be repeating the Filo dough project, I grabbed a piece of the WIP material still available and started forging and folding it. Carbon is still being lost but I think I am closer to getting reliably good welds. My guess is, we have at least 6 folds, the material is getting lighter in color, the spark is losing some of its bursts, it forges with quite a bit of resistance and it has the ring of a hard piece of steel ( though just cooled at room temperature).

 

I think the best thing I can do right now is to shape it into a blade shape and see how hard the edge gets and see if a quench line develops...so that is what I will do. Here are some pics of two pieces of the same bar ,one of which was folded a few more times ( 3, I believe).   Now, one more fold lengthwise and quench.

 

DSCN5164.jpg  Two halves of the same ingot

DSCN5166.jpg  One of the halves folded an additional 3 times

DSCN5167.jpg  Same

DSCN5168.jpg  Same, opposite side

 

Jan



#64 Joshua States

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 02:59 PM

The time of reckoning. Cool.

 

FWIT- When I did my pattern welding on my LG25, I used the drawing dies to make the welds. I would hold the billet parallel to the dies and hammer the center of the billet first and then move toward the edges. This concentrated the force in a smaller area and set the welds while forcing all flux out the billet sides. Two good welding heats to set the welds before turning the billet perpendicular to the dies to thin it out for folding or stacking.

 

I think I missed the video you refer to.


Edited by Joshua States, 23 December 2016 - 03:01 PM.

“So I'm lightin' out for the territory, ahead of the scared and the weak and the mean spirited, because Aunt Sally is fixin’ to adopt me and civilize me, and I can't stand it. I've been there before.”

 

Once more into the fray. Into the last good fight I'll ever know. Live and die on this day. Live, and die, on this day.

 

Josh

http://www.dosgatosdesignsllc.com/#!

 


#65 Jan Ysselstein

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 03:22 PM

Joshua,

                Thank you for the tip..I am almost doing that..set the weld by hand and then into the hammer at welding heat next. The problem with these welds ( I think ) is the migration of a viscous material ( rice straw ash or silica, slightly fluxed ) migrating into the closed fold when the fold has a gap which gets (is) too large...the only material which should be going there is the rice straw ash/iron oxide  , via Capillary Action. We also want that flux to gas off once it is in the joining surface area to push a lot of stuff out. So we have to find a way to do that. I am optimistic about being able to do that, but it all takes a lot of time.

   If I can keep my tanto  under 10" total say 6.5/3.5/1" inches for blade/ handle/blade width   I may have enough material here. I had considered bending the sample and adding a lower carbon center kobuse style, I am not that confident in these particular welds and cannot afford the possibility of Filo dough.

Jan

 

By the way the video is in post #35 ..it is the  Japanese smith making a sword. 


Edited by Jan Ysselstein, 23 December 2016 - 03:54 PM.


#66 Jan Ysselstein

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 01:33 AM

I had a chance to weld grind the sample to a blade shape,  there are numerous small short weld defects and I do not think it is worth continuing with this set of samples. What surprised me during heavy grinding is the  amount of high carbon sparks....maybe I had more room than I thought.

 

Right now I am forced to push away for a month or so.. we will complete this topic when time allows.

 

Jan



#67 Jan Ysselstein

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 02:29 AM

So, I heated and quenched the blade and tempered it over the forge charcoal fire. It is ugly but it has taught me a lot. The blade shape is still very thick at the edge and when I have time again I will grind into it to check the variation if any.

 

Here are some pics of what I got...a file runs off the edge and the spine without any grabbing, very hard. A major question became   ? Can I do x number of folds in a gas forge and still have enough carbon left to get a good blade? I would say yes at least 8 and when skills improve probable many more. Now we will stay focused on the welding and move on to clays for quenching ( the clay was gone here when I took the iron out of the tub, but there was very little unwanted cooling going on).

I will repeat this test in a month or two and will target a slightly higher carbon level...

frame5.jpg           
DSCN5175.jpg
DSCN5178.jpg
DSCN5181.jpg

 

Jan


Edited by Jan Ysselstein, 25 December 2016 - 02:33 AM.


#68 Connor J. Myers-Norton

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 08:22 AM

I think I see a fine looking hamon there! Merry Christmas!




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